The State of Machinist in DT - Let's talk about it (again).

[Shurrikhan]

...You're still missing what I'm trying to say. Something being mathematically feasible doesn't mean SE will implement it. I agree the issue could be addressed through stronger buffs, but I don't believe it will happen.

While they can just increase the numbers — jobs like BLM and SAM prove that, as you've pointed out — we had enough failed attempts and the devs do not want to see a support, pure DPS doing enough personal damage to be competitive. Again, I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that "can" and "want" are rather different.

The difference between BLM/SAM and MCH, though, has nothing to do with anything inherent to pure DPS and everything simply to do with MCH being more dispensable. It's not Yoshida's job and its in a less popular role that already typically relies on the basic arbitrary composition requirements to be taken at all.

No part of that changes in adding a raidbuff. And if MCH is to remain too attention starved even to get simple potency buffs (i.e., what even healers can somehow afford), how the hell would it see time of day enough to get a raidbuff?

Also, on the 5% raid buff point, I was specifically referring to proportions. It means different things for different jobs depending on their personal vs. raid contribution. If NIN is doing 30k rDPS, 3k comes from buffs, so 90% is personal.

And again, there is no directly relevant increase except in terms of total contribution, which every decent state of balance has correlated tightly with.

From my experience with other things in this game, when SE mishandles something for this long, meaningful changes only come when there's a full design overhaul. I don't see why MCH would be an exception.

Except MCH has slipped into the highest total contribution among Physical Ranged a few different times now even since becoming purely physical, and Bard and MCH likewise saw periods of 2 to 3 major patches where one or the other was clearly superior even when they had identical portions of raid dps.

You're not going to fix overly slow or rough tuning by giving MCH a raidbuff. At best, it changes nothing for how often or well Physical Ranged get balanced, as we saw across Heavensward and Stormblood. More likely, it worsens issues in the short-term, as you've just added another and novel complicating factor, as per whenever one was added (as in Stormblood and Shadowbringers).

Tl;dr: The devs likely have even less "want" to spend the larger amount of time required to give MCH a raidbuff than to simply apply the necessary potency increases.

[brinn12]

The difference between BLM/SAM and MCH, though, has nothing to do with anything inherent to pure DPS and everything simply to do with MCH being more dispensable. It's not Yoshida's job and its in a less popular role that already typically relies on the basic arbitrary composition requirements to be taken at all.

No part of that changes in adding a raidbuff. And if MCH is to remain too attention starved even to get simple potency buffs (i.e., what even healers can somehow afford), how the hell would it see time of day enough to get a raidbuff?


And again, there is no directly relevant increase except in terms of total contribution, which every decent state of balance has correlated tightly with.


Except MCH has slipped into the highest total contribution among Physical Ranged a few different times now even since becoming purely physical, and Bard and MCH likewise saw periods of 2 to 3 major patches where one or the other was clearly superior even when they had identical portions of raid dps.

You're not going to fix overly slow or rough tuning by giving MCH a raidbuff. At best, it changes nothing for how often or well Physical Ranged get balanced, as we saw across Heavensward and Stormblood. More likely, it worsens issues in the short-term, as you've just added another and novel complicating factor, as per whenever one was added (as in Stormblood and Shadowbringers).

Tl;dr: The devs likely have even less "want" to spend the larger amount of time required to give MCH a raidbuff than to simply apply the necessary potency increases.

They've been increasing the average patch cycle every expansion. I am sure they had enough time to give it a raid buff, considering their plan to revamp every job in just 1 patch (8.0), while also releasing other 2.

Whenever this job eventually "slips", SE ends the fun. MCH was an inferior pick for TEA, FRU and DSR, and decent (not superior, just evened out) in TOP. It was bad for the first 2 tiers in Endwalker and Dawntrail, eventually being banned from PF, where it should be shining the most. Good for 1 tier in Shadowbringers. A 3% or a 5% buff like you suggest takes too long to happen with SE's hesitation. Their buffs are always small, too spread out and lose efficiency considering how much DNC and BRD get buffed indirectly.

Threads like this one exist for a reason, people are seeing the same cycle repeating itself time and time again, and it's not going to be broken by asking SE for the same thing they've been doing for 5 years. If you want to believe that, go ahead. I know my point stands when I see threads like this being remade as if they were scripted, with the same complaints and requests.

[Shurrikhan]

A 3% or a 5% buff like you suggest takes too long to happen with SE's hesitation. Their buffs are always small, too spread out and lose efficiency considering how much DNC and BRD get buffed indirectly.

If you buffed every non-Physical Ranged job by a massive 5%, that'd still have increased the performance of BRD (the most dependent on said increases for its total throughput) by barely 0.27% in ST fights. Even just 5 potency more on Burst Shot would do contribute twice that much. The indirect buffs are virtually a non-factor.

people are seeing the same cycle repeating itself time and time again, and it's not going to be broken by asking SE for the same thing they've been doing for 5 years.

You mean the same thing RDM, SMN, BLM, and DRG regularly have to ask for?

I know my point stands when I see threads like this being remade as if they were scripted, with the same complaints and requests.

Except, again, you're saying that the solution to the apparent issue that the devs won't spend time on MCH is to champion an approach that would require even more time and throw yet another wrench into MCH's works. That makes no damn sense.

If you want MCH to have a raid buff for thematic reasons, just say as much, but saying they could/should just go the more expensive route because they lack the desire to do even the cheaper route is incongruous.

Meanwhile, here's a 4.5% damage buff to bring it up to an entirely sufficient level of competitiveness in ST with improved buff-exploitation worth another ~0.2% total contribution in all of two lines:

• Checkmate potency increased from 170 to 200.
• Double Check potency increased from 170 to 200.
• Drill potency increased from 600 to 680 potency.
• Air Anchor potency increased from 600 to 680 potency.
• Chainsaw potency increased from 600 to 680 potency.
• Excavator potency increased from 600 to 680 potency.

Voila, 4.5% bonus, bringing it within less than a percent of Bard. As simply as that.

Whenever this job eventually "slips", SE ends the fun.

Probably because it, frankly, shouldn't be outperforming BRD or DNC in any optimized group. It's less reliant and easier for a group to optimize (around). MCH should generally be near DNC and BRD, but by high percentiles it really shouldn't ever overtake them.