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  1. #1
    Player
    Teno's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    879
    Character
    Teno Gestalt
    World
    Moogle
    Main Class
    Sage Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Valence View Post
    Only partially, especially in FLs because FLs turns into a zerg where crowd movements tend to always follow the same script. I have played old Secure, it was exactly like this, with the exact same patterns every time. This isn't a hazard that current Shatter also always plays the exact same no matter what. There is some replayability in the fact that yes, at the micro level you'll move differently which is already a huge gain compared to the pve we're getting, and if that satisfies you, then that's great for you. I however see zero negative with having adjustment and some rng at the macro level to shake the script and change macro patterns. This is what makes Seal Rock and Onsal better to me.

    So I do indeed stand by that opinion.
    The crowd movements don't really matter as an individual, you can single out enemies from crowds and this is partly where the fun comes from. Plus crowds as you mentioned them vary greatly from game to game.
    Also the node rng allows diversity.
    (0)

  2. #2
    Player
    Valence's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    4,461
    Character
    Sunie Dakwhil
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Teno View Post
    The crowd movements don't really matter as an individual, you can single out enemies from crowds and this is partly where the fun comes from. Plus crowds as you mentioned them vary greatly from game to game.
    Also the node rng allows diversity.
    Hard disagree on Shatter's crowd movements. They're always pretty much the same and following a script.
    I haven't played new Secure enough so I will refrain from judging it, but I think it has better potential by offering different avenues even without the rng Seal Rock and Onsal have. It was a lot easier in the older Secure to change one's own patterns depending on where you wanted to go (like Shatter v1.0), but the fact remains that there is a fixed node spawn timer that forces every team into middle movements at regular intervals and forces a certain rigidity at specific times.
    (2)

  3. 05-17-2025 06:44 AM

  4. #4
    Player Mawlzy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2023
    Posts
    2,824
    Character
    Jessa Marko
    World
    Adamantoise
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Aidorouge View Post
    I was hoping that Secure would at least allow for skirmishes from smaller groups on the flags, but people will 99% of the time run away/not engage even when they outnumber the opposition. Watching 6 people flee while 2 enemies cap a flag never ceases to be sad, or the amount of times I would jump in to take on 3 people knowing there were 4 right behind me a moment ago only to end up dead as they STOOD THERE A WHOLE 40 SECONDS WAITING FOR THE JUMP PAD TO ACTIVATE made me stop trying to actually fight at flags, and I just treat it as the mount carousal it was clearly intended to be. And then all that waiting to get to mid just to shoot at nodes and drones, whoohoo...

    Somehow Secure makes people want to play even less PVP than Shatter, and I didn't think that was possible.
    This is why I've given up on Secure. Maybe the map has potential, but it seems to attract the same group of people who do not want to PvP that like Shatter.

    The flags are particularly maddening because, once you've flipped one, the buff should allow the defending team to hang onto it with a significant numerical disadvantage.

    Instead the enemy winks in the general direction of the flag and everyone runs away.
    (0)

  5. #5
    Player
    Atreus's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2011
    Posts
    893
    Character
    Atreus Auditore
    World
    Faerie
    Main Class
    Paladin Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Mawlzy View Post
    This is why I've given up on Secure. Maybe the map has potential, but it seems to attract the same group of people who do not want to PvP that like Shatter.

    The flags are particularly maddening because, once you've flipped one, the buff should allow the defending team to hang onto it with a significant numerical disadvantage.

    Instead the enemy winks in the general direction of the flag and everyone runs away.
    I stand by it, the best iteration of Secure was 2.0's release and it was ruined when they added points to kills and extra speed to mounts. Used to be that points were solely from holding points and busting nodes. It basically created a culture where each flag had a group of 8 fighting for it at all times and "deathblobbing" wasn't really a good strat.
    (0)
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  6. #6
    Player
    Divinemights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    2,143
    Character
    Altria Pendragons
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Aidorouge View Post
    I was hoping that Secure would at least allow for skirmishes from smaller groups on the flags, but people will 99% of the time run away/not engage even when they outnumber the opposition. Watching 6 people flee while 2 enemies cap a flag never ceases to be sad, or the amount of times I would jump in to take on 3 people knowing there were 4 right behind me a moment ago only to end up dead as they STOOD THERE A WHOLE 40 SECONDS WAITING FOR THE JUMP PAD TO ACTIVATE made me stop trying to actually fight at flags, and I just treat it as the mount carousal it was clearly intended to be. And then all that waiting to get to mid just to shoot at nodes and drones, whoohoo...

    Somehow Secure makes people want to play even less PVP than Shatter, and I didn't think that was possible.
    I don’t think this behavior has anything to do specifically with Secure—it’s just how people tend to act in any mode.
    You’ll often see this happen more frequently when 90% of the alliance is made up of ranged jobs.
    These backline players are much more likely to abandon melee teammates who are already engaged in combat and immediately chase the next objective as soon as it appears.
    After playing over 20,000 Frontline matches, I’ve come to use this pattern as a reliable indicator of what kind of alliance I’m in.
    (0)
    Last edited by Divinemights; 06-19-2025 at 09:24 AM.

  7. #7
    Player
    Valence's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    4,461
    Character
    Sunie Dakwhil
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Aidorouge View Post
    I was hoping that Secure would at least allow for skirmishes from smaller groups on the flags, but people will 99% of the time run away/not engage even when they outnumber the opposition. Watching 6 people flee while 2 enemies cap a flag never ceases to be sad, or the amount of times I would jump in to take on 3 people knowing there were 4 right behind me a moment ago only to end up dead as they STOOD THERE A WHOLE 40 SECONDS WAITING FOR THE JUMP PAD TO ACTIVATE made me stop trying to actually fight at flags, and I just treat it as the mount carousal it was clearly intended to be. And then all that waiting to get to mid just to shoot at nodes and drones, whoohoo...

    Somehow Secure makes people want to play even less PVP than Shatter, and I didn't think that was possible.
    I think the jump pads were the worst addition to the mode, and that's what I was afraid of even before they released it. People don't need to commit to the sides anymore. Makes everybody at a jump away from everything, which also encourages zerg blobbing even more.
    (3)

  8. #8
    Player
    Divinemights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    2,143
    Character
    Altria Pendragons
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Valence View Post
    I think the jump pads were the worst addition to the mode, and that's what I was afraid of even before they released it. People don't need to commit to the sides anymore. Makes everybody at a jump away from everything, which also encourages zerg blobbing even more.
    This also leaves your own primary outpost vulnerable to being captured.
    That’s the main reason it now provides an occupation damage buff and is positioned farther from the spawn point.
    The 15-second invulnerability on respawn has become largely irrelevant, as it typically expires by the time players reach the main outpost.
    If your team is aligned with Horde Stompede, you’ll often see a single enemy player repeatedly capturing main outpost—forcing your entire alliance to scramble between the outer node and main outpost.
    This kind of distraction can significantly impact your team's overall score.
    (0)

  9. #9
    Player
    Valence's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    4,461
    Character
    Sunie Dakwhil
    World
    Twintania
    Main Class
    Machinist Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Divinemights View Post
    This also leaves your own primary outpost vulnerable to being captured.
    That’s the main reason it now provides an occupation damage buff and is positioned farther from the spawn point.
    The 15-second invulnerability on respawn has become largely irrelevant, as it typically expires by the time players reach the main outpost.
    If your team is aligned with Horde Stompede, you’ll often see a single enemy player repeatedly capturing main outpost—forcing your entire alliance to scramble between the outer node and main outpost.
    This kind of distraction can significantly impact your team's overall score.
    Perhaps this is what the design intent was, but in reality it doesn't work because of the horde stampede that you mentioned above. There is always people respawning, and unless you want to get bogged down into fighting them one by one as they drip down and draw more and more of them to you, you need serious numbers (light party or above) to seize that outpost and hold it. And then their blob inevitably lands onto your face precisely because even if they're middle, they can just teleport back with the teleporters, or if someone actually smart in their team tells them in chat, they can also just /return and smash you to smitherens, or pincer you between the people coming back and the people respawning or porting back.

    In most games when I see an enemy outpost getting captured is when one of the teams/blobs has had free leeway to push all the way to said base without being contested, or being contested by one or two single lone souls that just get into the zerg meatgrinder. Fact of the matter is, they did everything to favor blobs since they increased mount speed in ShB, and doubled down on it after by adding fast movements tools like those new allagan teleporters to make sure people don't miss the action. Guess what happens when you can't miss the action? Just follow the blob.

    There is also another thing that tends to feed into this incentive as well, since the map design and mount speeds are just big enablers, and it's that most of the casual pvp base thinks in pve terms (which is very notable in CC questions from newbies: "what is my rotation?" "what is my opener?" "do I keep the GCD rolling?" or when you just see the DNC partnering a BLM). Thinking in pve terms, they just imitate what they know, which is following the blob like in hunt or fate trains for example, or exploratory content. It's what people tend to do in MMOs, and SE is just enabling it.

    The thing is, you could already steal the main outpost before with small teams as well while everybody was mid. In fact, it was easier, precisely because the only way to go back in a scramble was through /return, because no teleporters otherwise. Or just jumping down the cliff, which also works well tbh.
    (2)
    Last edited by Valence; 06-19-2025 at 06:00 PM.

  10. #10
    Player
    Divinemights's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2016
    Posts
    2,143
    Character
    Altria Pendragons
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Ninja Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Valence View Post
    Perhaps this is what the design intent was, but in reality it doesn't work because of the horde stampede that you mentioned above. There is always people respawning, and unless you want to get bogged down into fighting them one by one as they drip down and draw more and more of them to you, you need serious numbers (light party or above) to seize that outpost and hold it. And then their blob inevitably lands onto your face precisely because even if they're middle, they can just teleport back with the teleporters, or if someone actually smart in their team tells them in chat, they can also just /return and smash you to smitherens, or pincer you between the people coming back and the people respawning or porting back.
    I never said that EU/NA is playing Secure correctly—perhaps the same applies to Shatter as well.
    It's a grave mistake to expect any meaningful progress within a 3-minute timeframe by slowly pushing from your main base through the outer nodes into the enemy base.
    In the new Secure mode, you should avoid contesting the outer nodes entirely.
    Instead, your entire team should move directly into the enemy’s main outpost and fully capitalize on the occupation buff it provides.

    Losing the main outpost carries far greater consequences than losing outer nodes. T
    This is because SE has positioned the main outpost in such a way that it becomes a critical chokepoint the defending team can't afford to ignore.
    As previously explained, the defending team no longer benefits from the spawn buff, since the main outpost has been physically distanced from the spawn points.
    They can't ignore their main outpost being occupied and will likely attempt to overpower the occupying team to avoid being flanked by the second enemy team.
    I firmly believe the correct strategy is to occupy the enemy outpost and eliminate as many opponents as possible until the teleporter activates.
    At that point, your alliance should transition to the center to engage in the PvE events.
    (0)

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