Did PvP Get Worse?

[Nubrication]

Did PvP get worse? I took a small break and came back after all the PvP changes and just wanted to get an idea of people's thoughts.

-Locking cc(crowd-ctrl) behind gap closers: who in their right mind thought this was a good idea? PvP is situational and having to waste both your cc and your gap closer at the same time just doesn't make any sense. (i.e. PLD)

-Locking cc/beneficial skills behind abilities: (i.e. SAM/RDM, etc) In the case of RDM, the only real purpose of stun is to attempt to save yourself after your barrier is fully absorbed? That's such a niche usage...

-Also NIN doton - shukuchi trick no longer works in PvP? Anyone could've learned how to do it. But now they're literally stopping good players from excelling and making everything dumbed down so that even a bad player can do as well as a good player.

-MNK: I'm not gonna get into too much details but is it even viable now? It seems like it's heavily reliant on decent teammates now, whereas before you can take out priority targets to tip the scales in a fight. Now it's no cc (crowd-ctrl), ranged focused, animation delay, nerfed LB (no more KB-LB combo?). Is MNK even considered a carry anymore?

-BLM: cast times (no more LB instacast)... in CC (Cystalline Conflict)... seriously?

-I did like the changes (slight upgrades) to MCH, DRG, AST, WHM, RPR, WAR.
-SAM, NIN pretty much plays the same but it feels not as fluid with the slight changes (mainly the NIN doton-shukuchi trick).
-SGE, DNC are pretty much the same as before unless I'm mistaken.
-DRK, PLD, GNB I've got mixed feelings for even though the playstyle is pretty much still the same.
-SCH, RDM, MNK, BLM seems so underwhelming and/or team reliant. I don't think you can even carry with RDM/MNK anymore, so what's their purpose? Sustained dmg? In ANY PvP game, sustained dmg is the dumbest thing ever. You're basically ticking away at enemy HP/wasting their resources, hoping that your teammates know how to burst properly - and if your team doesn't, that enemy isn't dying.

-No comment on BRD and SMN, I haven't got around to playing them yet.
-I honestly thought they were gonna change VPR and PCT to match the previous meta, but they went the opposite route and tried to match the other Jobs to the VPR/PCT playstyle. /facepalm.

/endrant. I would definitely like some insights/opinions. Thanks for listening to my TED talk.

[Loggos]

I do think several aspects of PvP got worse but to this day my biggest problem is the overhaul of the hit detection and input registration. The idea of tying hits to animations that were never designed for that purpose (their length is often not proportional to the benefit/impact a skill provides) has been discussed a lot when the update went live.

The input lag is a big problem, as well, esp. if you play on controller. It doesn't even matter if it you are on console or on PC with controller. Often your button presses are straight up ignored which screws over your muscle memory so you need to press every button frantically several times while tracking that they actually went off.
I have played around with mouse and keyboard a bit and I don't think the problem is as bad there from what I can tell (please correct me if I'm wrong though)? So it's really frustrating for those who play on controller.

"I swear I pressed that button" is a succint summary of my PvP experience and it has actually cost me matches.
(I don't mean this in the "Urhur, if it weren't for those buttons I'd be crystal by now, trust!!!" way. I have the rank I deserve but it's still really frustrating when it happens. Maybe I'd be (rank) 3 now and not (rank) 4. :'P)

And it's not bandwith I think because this happens *only* inside PvP games, at least for me. Not in PvE, not in the Wolf's Den.


I agree very much with the criticism of PLD's new stun. I also preferred that it was a separate action I could use more deliberately (and I also miss that PLD had two dash charges and the mobility it granted).

As for the classes, I suppose it's very debatable who improved and who didn't. Some did leave their previous uniqueness behind (like RDM and its stance switching, AST's cards, and BLM with its freeze playstyle which felt like actual ice magic - now it's "just" fast magic for (mainly) defense (and some tactical shenanigans) and strong magic for big booms) but I believe that there also are people who have real fun with those changes (I have to say as much as I miss the old BLM I do still find the new iteration fun - it's just very different).

With 7.1 SGE had indeed not changed much, in fact they removed several things that had made it viable before, which put it in an awful state after the overhaul (a decision which is to this day still incomprehensible to me because what do you mean, you made all the other healers absolutely cracked, threw SGE right into the gutter and said "yep, that's good balance"...). It has been "buffed" back to where it used to be before with a bit of extra damage thanks to the new Phlegma/Psyche combo so it's serviceable and fun again but it's still not a meta job in any shape I guess.


Can you elaborate what you mean with classes being changed to match PCT's and VPR's playstyle (though I don't play VPR, only PCT, and can't speak on the former)? I never perceived it like that tbh but I'm interested in hearing from which angle you are looking at it.

At least with PCT I feel like it's the opposite I have to say. It's the one thing I view as a positive change through and through.

It can finally match the pace of other classes. Previously it was very slow-paced and its gameplay rhythm was very at odds with the rhythm of (CC) matches. Now its pace has improved greatly so I have the impression it did become more similar to other classes, not the other way round.

Edit: Regarding RDM, as far as I am aware RDM is very meta right now and a very frequent pick, so I don't believe it's in a bad state. But I don't play it so I can't say much about it.

[Nubrication]

I definitely have an issue with hit detection/input registration on mouse/kb. Sometimes I’m spamming the button multiple times for it to actually register that I’m pressing that hotkey.

What I meant about the whole all Jobs now fit the PCT/VPR play-style is that the Jobs now have less cc and more sustained damage instead of burst (I guess I was wrong in a sense and was mostly referring to MNK and RDM - mostly MNK lol). And also the animation-dmg registration was horrible on PCT/VPR (and now also MNK). Previously all the “carry” classes were very bursty and/or had cc which helped secure kills. When PCT/VPR got introduced it lacked the same “burst” potential and had weaker ccs that were locked behind a rotation (or LB) so you couldn’t use your ccs when you actually needed it/on demand (in the case of PCT). And I felt like the devs basically made MNK/RDM kind of fall into that sort of play-style. Basically, they’re more team reliant to secure kills now, just like how PCT and VPR were (I’m not sure if they made any changes to these 2 classes since initial release).

In summary the PCT/VPR play-style I was referring to: More animation delay, more important skills locked behind a rotation or another skill/ability, less on demand cc, less burst and more team reliance (which I think is actually detrimental in solo queues).

I just felt like the classes should do 1 of 3 things in the current pvp modes: tank (absorb dmg/initiate/waste enemy resources on you/cc, etc), carry (be able to secure kills with ccs or high burst by themselves), support (heal, buff, debuff, etc). There really isn’t room for sustained dmg imo, atleast not in CC (crysconflict) and that’s what I feel like some classes basically got pushed into. RPR and GNB was like that (sustained dmg) when CC first came out and they were absolutely horrible to play (mainly RPR). As RPR, they didn’t make a difference minus their LB fear; mainly because they didn’t do enough burst damage to secure kills and people can just run from the RPR to their own backlines and elixir because RPR had no cc at the time.

I definitely noticed that RDM is definitely waaay less squishier but also can’t destroy people as quickly anymore, maybe I need to adjust to the new RDM. I do miss the old RDM because it required some skill to “stance dance” between white/black at the right situations.

But I still think MNK is absolutely trashcan now.

Thanks for your input! And also they definitely need to fix their engine. Maybe that’s the issue. If I press a button, it should register the input and also register the dmg immediately (they need to fix the animations for PvP skills). Atleast that’s my opinion.

[Valence]

I do think that the shift to a better balance between sustain and burst is healthy. The all in into burst at higher levels was just obnoxious, and even moreso in LPs.
Caveat though, some jobs that had real issues with burst damage like BRD (they had the silence though, which made it immediately meta) have actually gained a lot in the burst department, so changes are not identical across the board overall. MCH as well, is absolutely disgusting on burst damage (but suffers from a lot of other things in exchange).

-Locking cc(crowd-ctrl) behind gap closers: who in their right mind thought this was a good idea? PvP is situational and having to waste both your cc and your gap closer at the same time just doesn't make any sense. (i.e. PLD)

I'd be inclined to agree... A lot of pvp effects in CC since its inception have been baked collectively into single abilities and that's nothing new, but it generally implies an opportunity cost scenario, which is also the case for PLD's gap closer, but I don't think it works well at all in this case for the reason you mention, even if it makes sense thematically.

-Locking cc/beneficial skills behind abilities: (i.e. SAM/RDM, etc) In the case of RDM, the only real purpose of stun is to attempt to save yourself after your barrier is fully absorbed? That's such a niche usage...

To be honest there is rarely a time where a strong AoE stun can't be applied to good effect especially since if your Forte barrier breaks, then it's that pvp is actually happening... Otherwise you have 10s to use it, and I feel it's fair for something as good as an AoE stun. Personally I've been stunned by this in a well placed manner when my HP was low and I was being focused target, so I do believe good RDMs can make great use of it, without speaking about Resolution still being as obnoxious as ever, so... I'm frankly okay with this. RDM is very good already as it is.

-Also NIN doton - shukuchi trick no longer works in PvP? Anyone could've learned how to do it. But now they're literally stopping good players from excelling and making everything dumbed down so that even a bad player can do as well as a good player.

I am not familiar with that trick, what did it do?

-MNK: I'm not gonna get into too much details but is it even viable now? It seems like it's heavily reliant on decent teammates now, whereas before you can take out priority targets to tip the scales in a fight. Now it's no cc (crowd-ctrl), ranged focused, animation delay, nerfed LB (no more KB-LB combo?). Is MNK even considered a carry anymore?

It looked underwhelming to everybody when 7.1 hit, and it's definitely not as S tier as it used to be, but I still see it classified as S tier on some lists from top players. I think under the hands of a skilled player, it still hard carries if just by its ability to tank or lock down players, the former being incredibly good in low skill games, and the later very good in high skill games. RoE bombs are now a tech due to the hit registration changes, you can dash to a target or group or target and have it detonate up their face with the delay.

-BLM: cast times (no more LB instacast)... in CC (Cystalline Conflict)... seriously?

I think BLM changes are very divisive and a lot of players truly miss superflare. BLM has shifted from a glass cannon to a more balanced job that can take a lot of punishment and I've seen some good BLM players doing pretty well overall (they're really annoying to kill with all their sustain + shielding + teleport actually). It still can deal a crapload of damage, but you'll have to cast yes... In my opinion it made the job a little better defined and balanced between ice and fire as well, where before it was a little... too much leaning toward ice spamm. Also more intuitive to make the difference of when to use ice and when to use fire for new players to the job.

-I did like the changes (slight upgrades) to MCH, DRG, AST, WHM, RPR, WAR.

AST was already S tier, now it's just... crazy. They have tuned it down a peg last patch where it hurts a little but it still has the best tools for everything and it shows. It's just very good since it plays directly into the current sustain meta.

-SAM, NIN pretty much plays the same but it feels not as fluid with the slight changes (mainly the NIN doton-shukuchi trick).

SAM has definitely been buffed hard, especially on the damage and sustain department. It deals a lot of damage, otherwise it's similar to what it used to be, with more things to do since you have more GCDs to play with to deal damage before going back to filler.
NIN is very wild in my opinion, has gained a lot of burst options (Zeppo is disgusting), still retains a lot of nasty stuns, and Seiton is overpowered especially since they lowered it down to 90s.

-SGE, DNC are pretty much the same as before unless I'm mistaken.

DNC's profile has change a bit, the damage output has been axed significantly, making it a lot more team reliant (it could really need a little help tbh), and the introduction of DotD is probably the biggest snowballing tool in the game right now (and it's properly disgusting with jobs like NIN, SAM, etc).

-DRK, PLD, GNB I've got mixed feelings for even though the playstyle is pretty much still the same.

PLD and GNB are part of the current meta since PLD plays directly into the sustain meta (cover/heals), and GNB is just one of the biggest hard carries with crazy damage output.

-SCH, RDM, MNK, BLM seems so underwhelming and/or team reliant. I don't think you can even carry with RDM/MNK anymore, so what's their purpose? Sustained dmg? In ANY PvP game, sustained dmg is the dumbest thing ever. You're basically ticking away at enemy HP/wasting their resources, hoping that your teammates know how to burst properly - and if your team doesn't, that enemy isn't dying.

SCH has always been team reliant but the change on its LB made it less so, and it has even more on demand heals (seraph on 60s cd not in the LB, resets at death...). It's a S tier job at high level.
RDM is very strong but its profile definitely has shifted away from a glass cannon (black shift) a bit like BLM making it more balanced and survivable. It has gained a LOT of team support and cc, making it very good by definition.

-No comment on BRD and SMN, I haven't got around to playing them yet.

BRD, SMN and MCH will work well at lower ranks, but they're not rated high at all (in fact quite at the bottom) in top crystal games.
BRD has become a lot less team reliant with strong offensive and burst options though, which is good for the job.
SMN LB still flattens whole teams that keel over at lower ranks.

-I honestly thought they were gonna change VPR and PCT to match the previous meta, but they went the opposite route and tried to match the other Jobs to the VPR/PCT playstyle. /facepalm.

Can't talk for PCT, some people seem to find it decent. VPR has been struggling since its inception, has been buffed making it okay, but it just doesn't play well into the current meta at all.

[Nubrication]

I am not familiar with that trick, what did it do?

Basically, you would cast doton at your current location and if you're fast enough, you could basically shukuchi to another location and the doton would plop down on your new location instead. It was really really good for initiating team fights when the enemy was clumped up, because of the aoe slow. It doesn't seem to work anymore (it still works in PvE though).

It looked underwhelming to everybody when 7.1 hit, and it's definitely not as S tier as it used to be, but I still see it classified as S tier on some lists from top players...

I haven't thought of that, that actually sounds really good in combo with PR - I'll try that out. The whole MNK kit still feels kind of clunky and not as fluid as before to me though.

I think BLM changes are very divisive and a lot of players truly miss superflare. BLM has shifted from a glass cannon to a more balanced job that can take a lot of punishment and I've seen some good BLM players doing pretty well overall...

While I'm definitely one of the folks that misses superflare, I agree with your comment.

SCH has always been team reliant but the change on its LB made it less so, and it has even more on demand heals (seraph on 60s cd not in the LB, resets at death...). It's a S tier job at high level.

While I definitely saw the healing benefits, back then I could secure kills with BIO and top the damage charts (in CC) and now I can't secure kills nor am I doing any significant damage. At this point, they might as well bring back full healers if they're going that route imo.

BRD, SMN and MCH will work well at lower ranks, but they're not rated high at all (in fact quite at the bottom) in top crystal games.
BRD has become a lot less team reliant with strong offensive and burst options though, which is good for the job.
SMN LB still flattens whole teams that keel over at lower ranks.

Is MCH bad? I felt like it's burst actually got better. My only gripe with MCH is that they removed bioblaster + analysis heavy which was very powerful combo in group fights, especially if they were sitting on top of your turret.

Thanks for your input, I'll play around with BLM and RDM a little more. MNK, I'll probably still avoid for the most part.

[Rolks]

I do think that the shift to a better balance between sustain and burst is healthy. The all in into burst at higher levels was just obnoxious, and even moreso in LPs.
Caveat though, some jobs that had real issues with burst damage like BRD (they had the silence though, which made it immediately meta) have actually gained a lot in the burst department, so changes are not identical across the board overall.

As a BRD main, I was real happy at the changes. I still get stomped in CC because, well, I suck at it. But in Frontline, I can finally finish people off. I've gone from like 0-2-29 to like 5-2-15 KDA. I'm estatic!

[Sunhwapark]

The whole MNK kit still feels kind of clunky and not as fluid as before to me though.

It's an unfortunate product of them trying to brute force MNK away from instant offloading 100-0 style into doing more sustained damage, KB>LB still exists in some format anyway.

It was really awful and slow at 7.1 with the hit detection, but it's far more responsive now that instant PR is back with the latest patch.
Wind's Reply is both good and bad, bad because the hit detection takes time to apply meaning it can potentially be guarded. The good part being that you can entirely disregard someone's guard status when LB is prepped since WR>LB applies guard break before the WR checks for knockback/damage, which basically is free pressure point proc with a follow-up hit. The same applies when using Fire's Reply followed with an LB essentially guarantees your attacks will land regardless of guard state, only nullified by things such as cover and drk/pld lb.

Similar to what Valence has said, I think MNK is quite strong for suppressing a target due to the nature of its LB and can still be quite a bully in the right hands since you can do quite a few tricks with its kit.

[Valence]

Is MCH bad? I felt like it's burst actually got better. My only gripe with MCH is that they removed bioblaster + analysis heavy which was very powerful combo in group fights, especially if they were sitting on top of your turret.

I don't think it's bad, especially below crystal, and the new additions to the toolkit are great, but everyone seems to say it's bad at top level and I'm inclined to agree. It's a ranged dps problem. There is a big imbalance between supports and red jobs in the high end meta, and red ranged jobs are really minced meat that can't follow well. MCH kit is problematic in that it's too predictable, WF is a big red flag, and the bursts while crazy powerful, are in practice very cumbersome to set up vs good players, or even in general. You can't just press your big nuke or cc button that comes back every 15-20s like all jobs. But if you get punished by MCH, it's really scary.

That's my view of it, and while I play often in ranked queue with top players, I'm not a top player myself. I've heard similar echoes from actual ones that played MCH at higher level however.

[Novani]

-BLM: cast times (no more LB instacast)... in CC (Cystalline Conflict)... seriously?

It's still kind of present, but you need to do a bit more work for setting it up. Basically, Fire Wreath + LB'D Ice magic. While it misses some potency per hit, the cast is instant and most importantly the Fire Wreath will punch through Guard, in most fights you won't get good enough cast times so quantity wins. Is very good for taking down opponents already struggling to stay alive.

The kit's output overall is still pretty meh compared to before, but on the other hand, the previous system's gap closer = Swiftcast was an absolute nightmare to micromanage all the time. And Superflare? Only good on a strictly flat map; any Z level difference completely killed your ability to contribute thanks to the way the game handled it. So an overall net posiitve with a slight neutral lean.

The addition of the weirdly animated long distance ST Slow is also pretty neat to use as well, it's still no AoE sleep but it's good for some things.

[SpritePR]

yes they 'improved' hit detection and made it a mess.