Prog skipping/lying is going wild this tier.

[klu]

It's difficult, yeah?

One one hand you have players who want to throw themselves at the challenge, they want the sublime victory, AND they also want the bragging rights and sense of elitism.

And on the other hand, you have players who want to coast other efforts of the first group, and do nothing like the work required.

Marrying these two is a disaster, always has been and always will be. Can't arbitrate or force either by human hand or software a fix.

But that doesn't mean there ISN'T a fix. It's that players are lazy. And I'm talking about the elites here. The raiders.

In almost all successful professional spheres in real life, the phrase "train your relief" is the gold standard. If the new guy can't do what you do, then YOU and ONLY you, have failed to ensure he can. Again, software cannot fix this for you. It's up to you to train someone to be at the standard you want them at.

"but klu, I don't wanna-"

Well obviously. It's evident that "you don't wanna".

And where's that attitude getting you?

Better than two decades of "raiding" being common parlance and inevitable, ever present stories of raid teams falling apart and disbanding because "no one wanna" do the work to make the system... well, work.

Twenty years of MMO-in, and the elitists are still complaining that they can't find enough elites to fill the bench and keep burnout at bay.

Why do you think the rules of the professional world DONT apply to what you're doing here, fellas?

Train your relief, or go extinct. Like everyone else before you.

[Saraide]

It's difficult, yeah?

One one hand you have players who want to throw themselves at the challenge, they want the sublime victory, AND they also want the bragging rights and sense of elitism.

And on the other hand, you have players who want to coast other efforts of the first group, and do nothing like the work required.

Marrying these two is a disaster, always has been and always will be. Can't arbitrate or force either by human hand or software a fix.

But that doesn't mean there ISN'T a fix. It's that players are lazy. And I'm talking about the elites here. The raiders.

In almost all successful professional spheres in real life, the phrase "train your relief" is the gold standard. If the new guy can't do what you do, then YOU and ONLY you, have failed to ensure he can. Again, software cannot fix this for you. It's up to you to train someone to be at the standard you want them at.

"but klu, I don't wanna-"

Well obviously. It's evident that "you don't wanna".

And where's that attitude getting you?

Better than two decades of "raiding" being common parlance and inevitable, ever present stories of raid teams falling apart and disbanding because "no one wanna" do the work to make the system... well, work.

Twenty years of MMO-in, and the elitists are still complaining that they can't find enough elites to fill the bench and keep burnout at bay.

Why do you think the rules of the professional world DONT apply to what you're doing here, fellas?

Train your relief, or go extinct. Like everyone else before you.

You cant train people that dont want to be trained.

[klu]

You cant train people that dont want to be trained.

I sincerely, and i mean *sincerely* doubt you are actually trying. Like yourself, I've been around this scene many, many times.

"Let us cast aside pretenses and reveal our true faces to one another."

The results are conclusive, and evident for all to see, Sara. I don't see threads or adverts popping up with "Looking for novice raider with good attitude to learn!"

I see "looking for disposable tool, MUST have exhaustive list of things you can do for me, not what we can do for each other".

[EchoingPulse]

I don't have a personal stake in this situation, but I saw the various posts, most soaked in anger or annoyance. It makes me happy, I'm too cowardly to try raiding. I understand the thrill and desire; those outfits are sexy when you can dye them. But no matter how hard I play Fashion Wars, nothing is worth this.

I feel that some players who lie about their abilities and progression are those who cannot find a practice, at least a consistent one. Every other group will not give them a chance. So, they lie because how else will they get experience and improve? I'm not saying they're right; I just understand why some of them do it.

[klu]

Every other group will not give them a chance. So, they lie

It's the contest of wills between lazy group and lazy group b.

Both factions want the other to do FOR them, and meanwhile the sandbar sinks into the ocean.

[Saraide]

The people I know willing to dredge through PF are usually more than happy to help people learn mechanics. Provided they arent lying about knowing the mechanics before the agreed upon prog point.

[klu]

Are the people you know willing to go back in their own progression to get someone up to speed? That's the sticking point.

And look, I get it. If you're spending X or XX weeks training recruits, then you're never progressing. It's a difficult balance.

I've seen raid teams break up because the idea was put on the table to drop back to PH1 when the group was on boarding a potential new raider.

[Drysgil]

As someone who cleared this fight week 1 and went back in for reclears on week 2 I don't even think it's prog skippers just people who are generally bad at raiding in a tier that takes 1% more skill than last tier

[Jamini]

As someone who cleared this fight week 1 and went back in for reclears on week 2 I don't even think it's prog skippers just people who are generally bad at raiding in a tier that takes 1% more skill than last tier

Had a fun 5S reclear party last night that was utterly clean until our SMN (who had tanked two pulls before) utterly failed the easiest permutation of Frogterage 2. Without having died going into it.

TYFP. But I'm not entertaining that. (Joined and oneshoted it right after in merc paty anyway.)

You are very right. A marginally harder savage has caught a ton of unprepared people by surprise in cruiserweight.

[Themarvin]

I think it should much more about forgetting the proc part of the raid that should be in focus at all...

The community is dead toxic, if looked more at the side of and just worrying more about getting some attempts done would be the best thing possible and in the short and long run creating a better pool of players.

As it is now Statics and more rely heavy on cactbot and ACT as it is, with exception of first week, those that clear the stuff first week, are the true heroes, the actual blind approach to things before need to have watched whichever persons guide as it is