M6s in PF is the most miserable and unfun high end fight in the game

[drtasteyummy]

Truth is PF consists of good people, medium people and bad people. The HP of the adds in m6s was chosen on a level where good people would clear it, medium people did not and bad people will outgear when they reach it. That's why it feels so bad, that's all, PF has a full range of these people and the truth is the slower you clear and the slower you are in general even time wise when you start the higher chances you get to meet bad players. Someone said it well to me: after the initial phase of good players whether you prog or not in PF is pure luck and it's just like that. Eventually you have to face the reality that your skill only can go so far without fitting people.

[Taranok]

Truth is PF consists of good people, medium people and bad people. The HP of the adds in m6s was chosen on a level where good people would clear it, medium people did not and bad people will outgear when they reach it. That's why it feels so bad, that's all, PF has a full range of these people and the truth is the slower you clear and the slower you are in general even time wise when you start the higher chances you get to meet bad players. Someone said it well to me: after the initial phase of good players whether you prog or not in PF is pure luck and it's just like that. Eventually you have to face the reality that your skill only can go so far without fitting people.

So, as a counterpoint to this: If M6S requires the very weapon it drops just to reliably clear it even with average savage raiders, M6S is horrifically overtuned. No ifs, no ands, no buts. Full stop, if people need gear to reliably meet the DPS check and it's not a group of truly bad people, the fight is the problem.

I can understand people needing crafted gear to have an easy time, but M6S adds shouldn't need i740 to have enough DPS for the average player to clear. Some may think that's too hard, but this isn't a capstone boss, and it's also not an ultimate. It should be balanced around people in i730 coming in and having a reasonable chance at clearing even with average players. Because, simply put, it's a lower-end savage fight for the tier.

Also, the devs should properly test their fights to see that they perform well at ping, because none of the fights I've done so far feel good with my internet connection, and it's far from the worst ping some people play with.

[Kohashi]

So, as a counterpoint to this: If M6S requires the very weapon it drops just to reliably clear it even with average savage raiders, M6S is horrifically overtuned. No ifs, no ands, no buts. Full stop, if people need gear to reliably meet the DPS check and it's not a group of truly bad people, the fight is the problem.

I can understand people needing crafted gear to have an easy time, but M6S adds shouldn't need i740 to have enough DPS for the average player to clear. Some may think that's too hard, but this isn't a capstone boss, and it's also not an ultimate. It should be balanced around people in i730 coming in and having a reasonable chance at clearing even with average players. Because, simply put, it's a lower-end savage fight for the tier.

Also, the devs should properly test their fights to see that they perform well at ping, because none of the fights I've done so far feel good with my internet connection, and it's far from the worst ping some people play with.

No, they aren't. People cleared M6s before cleave maxxing was a thing. You don't even need to do that; however, doing that strategy will significantly lower the effort.
The second fight in the tier is not always historically easier than the next one. p6s > p7s, P10s > p11s.

Also, while this fight can be entered as 735, you are expected to be at least in 740.

As for the ping, I agree, at least when it comes to rotation, because in terms of timing, it's nothing that requires a crazy nice ping, at least not so far.

[Arohk]

It should be balanced around people in i730 coming in and having a reasonable chance at clearing even with average players..

Crafted gear + full overmelding should be the baseline to go into savage, there is no excuse to not do that, and those who dont are just bad and should be avoided in your party..

[Luca_]

So, as a counterpoint to this: If M6S requires the very weapon it drops just to reliably clear it even with average savage raiders, M6S is horrifically overtuned. No ifs, no ands, no buts. Full stop, if people need gear to reliably meet the DPS check and it's not a group of truly bad people, the fight is the problem.

I can understand people needing crafted gear to have an easy time, but M6S adds shouldn't need i740 to have enough DPS for the average player to clear. Some may think that's too hard, but this isn't a capstone boss, and it's also not an ultimate. It should be balanced around people in i730 coming in and having a reasonable chance at clearing even with average players. Because, simply put, it's a lower-end savage fight for the tier.

Also, the devs should properly test their fights to see that they perform well at ping, because none of the fights I've done so far feel good with my internet connection, and it's far from the worst ping some people play with.

You're too lazy to do so much as buy a 740 crafted set and you expect to breeze through one of the hardest fights in the tier? lol

[Taranok]

You're too lazy to do so much as buy a 740 crafted set and you expect to breeze through one of the hardest fights in the tier? lol

I'm in full 740 and had to hard carry my awful m6s clear group on my alt to victory because everyone else was a mouth-breather and can't even handle below average play without falling over dead.

The second fight of a tier should not be the hardest fight, the fact that one section of it is harder than ultimate mechanics design is 1000% the problem. And, from my own experience, it used to be more than possible to breeze through the first 2 tiers in prior-tier's BIS. I did it numerous times in stormblood and shadowbringers. But I suppose shifting goalposts and making the game so hard that most players who want to do savage can't handle even its second fight is good fight design.

What do I know, I've only been savage raiding since ARR.

[Jeeqbit]

If M6S requires the very weapon it drops

2nd floors (which M6S is) don't usually drop weapons.

I can understand people needing crafted gear to have an easy time, but M6S adds shouldn't need i740 to have enough DPS for the average player to clear.

If you don't think 740 crafted gear is the expected baseline then you don't understand how the game has functioned for the last 10 years. The routine for any savage raider, including a casual raider that returns at savage release briefly, is this:

Buy crafted gear/food/pots > clear savage > grab weekly tomestone/raid loot along the way to make the last floors a bit easier.

Anything less than this is no different than things like "not doing your rotation", "not attacking", "not healing" or entering with broken gear. It's uncooperative and selfish gameplay.

It should be balanced around people in i730

It is generally balanced around the "Avg. Item Level". For the second fight that is 735. But needless to say, you have to be rather perfect to pull off an actual minimum item level clear in many cases, depending on the fight. Just a tiny item level difference can create a lot of leeway - we have seen this play out with Unreal and Ultimates for example with their tight syncs. Because 5 ilvl on each party member could be like 1 party member with 40 additional ilvl, plus it is an extra point of weapon damage for each person and a bigger LB.

So SE gives us this extra leeway with the crafted gear because "giving leeway" to make more people clear is good for SE's finances (they've said this).

[Absurdity]

2nd floors (which M6S is) don't usually drop weapons.

They kinda do though.
The 2nd floor drops the Universal Tomestone, the item needed for the tomestone weapon, saving you 6 weeks of normal raids and more weapon damage is always a pretty significant dps increase.

Of course it's not literally required to clear, but the additional damage buffer makes it a lot easier, especially in PF where performance fluctuates wildly.

[Jeeqbit]

They kinda do though.
The 2nd floor drops the Universal Tomestone, the item needed for the tomestone weapon, saving you 6 weeks of normal raids and more weapon damage is always a pretty significant dps increase.

Of course it's not literally required to clear, but the additional damage buffer makes it a lot easier, especially in PF where performance fluctuates wildly.

True. But in any case, the problem solves itself by the 7th week (next week), when people can get the weapon augment without having set food in savage yet - not to mention 7 weeks of tomestone gear. Usually the 7th week you see a massive shift in how the first two floors melt. Which makes all these complaints short-sighted in a way.

[AllenThyl]

True. But in any case, the problem solves itself by the 7th week (next week), when people can get the weapon augment without having set food in savage yet - not to mention 7 weeks of tomestone gear. Usually the 7th week you see a massive shift in how the first two floors melt. Which makes all these complaints short-sighted in a way.

7 cruiser holosaber can be exchanged for 1 Universal Tomestone 2.0, which allows for purchase of an unaugmented tome weapon. The Ester for augmentation is exclusively available from m7s, and will only be available through other means late in 7.3, long after the release of 2nd Alliance raid.
Further, even BiS gear will not help groups that are making fundamental mistakes with their cooldown management, positioning, or not healing tanks when they require because somehow GCD casting a heal is worse wiping.