We need to do something about Tanks and Outgoing Damage from Bosses

[CaptainLagbeard]

Replacing some of it with shields isn't the worst idea...


DRK was generally fine in 7.0, go back to that and maybe take Shadowed Vigil down from 1200 to like 800.

PLD, replace the HoT from Holy Sheltron and Intervention with a 400 potency shield. While removing the heal from Divine Veil and the Confiteor combo. Divine Spirit can keep it's heal as you get one of them through your main combo, and if you REALLY want to, you can trade the Confiteor combo to spam Divine Spirit for sustain in Requiscat/Imperator... Maybe drop down the potency of the Confiteor combo when not used with Requiscat/Imperator to make it even more of a trade off...

GNB, take Aurora back to 1 charge and 200 potency. And take Heart of Corundrum down to like a 300 potency heal max. Or turn the heal into a shield.



WAR would need some more extensive reworking... Unless you want more homogenization... They've kind of been in an awkward position when they started the tank homogenization in Shadowbringers, as Defiance lost the extra 25% HP and 20% more healing received, which incidentally back then buffed SCH and AST shields, as the healer shields are based on the amount healed... But without that extra HP, they needed the same mit as every other tank. But they also kept their self heals...

[Jim5K]

Replacing some of it with shields isn't the worst idea...


DRK was generally fine in 7.0, go back to that and maybe take Shadowed Vigil down from 1200 to like 800.

PLD, replace the HoT from Holy Sheltron and Intervention with a 400 potency shield. While removing the heal from Divine Veil and the Confiteor combo. Divine Spirit can keep it's heal as you get one of them through your main combo, and if you REALLY want to, you can trade the Confiteor combo to spam Divine Spirit for sustain in Requiscat/Imperator... Maybe drop down the potency of the Confiteor combo when not used with Requiscat/Imperator to make it even more of a trade off...

GNB, take Aurora back to 1 charge and 200 potency. And take Heart of Corundrum down to like a 300 potency heal max. Or turn the heal into a shield.



WAR would need some more extensive reworking... Unless you want more homogenization... They've kind of been in an awkward position when they started the tank homogenization in Shadowbringers, as Defiance lost the extra 25% HP and 20% more healing received, which incidentally back then buffed SCH and AST shields, as the healer shields are based on the amount healed... But without that extra HP, they needed the same mit as every other tank. But they also kept their self heals...

Replacing tank self-sustain with barriers is the worst idea by far, tank barriers scale off of their max hp and not from tank's cure potency, giving a tank barrier especially just by doing their rotations like the post you were replying to will make tank even better in ultimates and literally gods who can't be hurt in normal dungeons.

[CaptainLagbeard]

Replacing tank self-sustain with barriers is the worst idea by far, tank barriers scale off of their max hp and not from tank's cure potency, giving a tank barrier especially just by doing their rotations like the post you were replying to will make tank even better in ultimates and literally gods who can't be hurt in normal dungeons.

What if I told you a 400 potency shield doesn't mean 400% of the tanks HP?

[Rithy255]

Replacing some of it with shields isn't the worst idea...

I really don't understand why we're advocating for replacing Heals with shields, this just shifts the powercreep of the tanks into shield HP. As a Paladin it's Not the self healing that keeps me alive in AOE It's the sheer mitigation value I have, if you've played tank outside warrior you'd notice this.

a lot of you are over estimate how much self healing effects survivability and never consider how good the actual mitigation aspects of the tanks truly are. Combining Normal mitigation cooldowns with shields is also insanely strong, Guardian proves that combining a mitigation and shield is way too strong especially when tanks already got boat loads of Shielding and mitigation. Both play a part in making tanks Immortal but it's a lot of the time to do with mitigation, adding shields ontop of that would likely make you heal less then you already do.

I'll give a example on how I'd scale down tanks power levels
PLD - Remove self healing from all Magic attacks, Holy sheltron/intervention becomes a flat 20% keeping its regen as its only form of sustain outside clemency which costs damage, Reduce Guardian down to 30% and reduce its barrier to 500 potency
GNB - HOC Also a 20% Mitigation Half the Excog potency, Aurora regen back to 200 Potency, Great Nebula back to 30% and half the health gained aspect
WAR - Bloodwhetting/Nascent split, bw can target self or ally BW Mitigates damage by 15% and creates a barrier for 400 potency, nascent flash can only target self it heals you for each hit by 300 potency for 8s DOES NOT HEAL PER ENEMY. equilibrium regen removed, Damnation becomes 35% mitigation keeps its damage aspect, Remove regen, shake it off no longer regens
DRK - Shadowed Vigil, goes to 30% Reduce healing to 800 Potency.

But this would also be in addition to actually designing fights that deal higher damage to tanks, let tanks also pull more then 2 packs.

[Supersnow845]

I really don't understand why we're advocating for replacing Heals with shields, this just shifts the powercreep of the tanks into shield HP. As a Paladin it's Not the self healing that keeps me alive in AOE It's the sheer mitigation value I have, if you've played tank outside warrior you'd notice this.

a lot of you are over estimate how much self healing effects survivability and never consider how good the actual mitigation aspects of the tanks truly are. Combining Normal mitigation cooldowns with shields is also insanely strong, Guardian proves that combining a mitigation and shield is way too strong especially when tanks already got boat loads of Shielding and mitigation. Both play a part in making tanks Immortal but it's a lot of the time to do with mitigation, adding shields ontop of that would likely make you heal less then you already do.

I'll give a example on how I'd scale down tanks power levels
PLD - Remove self healing from all Magic attacks, Holy sheltron/intervention becomes a flat 20% keeping its regen as its only form of sustain outside clemency which costs damage, Reduce Guardian down to 30% and reduce its barrier to 500 potency
GNB - HOC Also a 20% Mitigation Half the Excog potency, Aurora regen back to 200 Potency, Great Nebula back to 30% and half the health gained aspect
WAR - Bloodwhetting/Nascent split, bw can target self or ally BW Mitigates damage by 15% and creates a barrier for 400 potency, nascent flash can only target self it heals you for each hit by 300 potency for 8s DOES NOT HEAL PER ENEMY. equilibrium regen removed, Damnation becomes 35% mitigation keeps its damage aspect, Remove regen, shake it off no longer regens
DRK - Shadowed Vigil, goes to 30% Reduce healing to 800 Potency.

But this would also be in addition to actually designing fights that deal higher damage to tanks, let tanks also pull more then 2 packs.

People mostly ignore the mitigation factor here because by and large ultimate and higher end savage actually do test tanks pure mitigation potential and even in more casual content mitigating damage; whether it’s needed or not; is much more in line with the tank job description than raw healing is

Tanks don’t necessarily need a nerf to their pure mitigation (though if they made it more interesting I’d take that as a net positive) but healing internally lengthens survivability often indefinitely. Even if tanks had a “reduce damage by 95% no CD” if they had no healing the boss would eventually whittle them down. However with self healing the damage they take is less than the damage they heal so their eHP is effectively infinite. That’s what leads to what OP is discussing. Pure mitigation, and to a lesser extent shields better prevent protracted casual content holdouts by tanks because they are at their core “temporary” HP, pure healing is permanent HP

[Alice_Rivers]

Pure mitigation, and to a lesser extent shields better prevent protracted casual content holdouts by tanks because they are at their core “temporary” HP, pure healing is permanent HP

There is a valid argument to be made that if we just turn tank heals into shields then they might well just never run out of shields by virtue of synergy between mits and shields as well as the sheer quantity of mits, shields and mits with shields.

[Supersnow845]

There is a valid argument to be made that if we just turn tank heals into shields then they might well just never run out of shields by virtue of synergy between mits and shields as well as the sheer quantity of mits, shields and mits with shields.

I’m not saying I agree with self healing being turned to shields. I’m just saying the idea behind that idea is that shields and mitigation are inherently temporary, pure healing is permanent

[ForsakenRoe]

Replacing tank self-sustain with barriers is the worst idea by far, tank barriers scale off of their max hp and not from tank's cure potency, giving a tank barrier especially just by doing their rotations like the post you were replying to will make tank even better in ultimates and literally gods who can't be hurt in normal dungeons.

Well, first of all, no. Tank barriers scale off of Attack Power, not Max HP, unless the barrier specifically states that it is based on Max HP. So, Veil, TBN, Shake, are based on Max HP, because they state as much. The barrier effect of Guardian (1000p) is based on 'an amount equal to this tank doing a 1000p heal on themselves'. Coincidentally, PLD has access to Clemency, a 1000p heal, so it's pretty easy to see how much 1000p would actually be for them in any given gear.

Secondly, Barrier effects have a duration. The times between CDs (and there will be times), are the points where the Tanks take damage. But unlike currently, the damage won't be healed back by Bloodwhetting and the like. Once the HP is lost, it's lost until the Healer heals it back.

I dunno what they were writing about, as their numbers would be a nerf to the overall sustain of the Tanks. I don't think the Tanks need their sustain 'nerfed' per se, just tweaked so that the effect of the sustain is a little more... temporary. Plus, it'd introduce a new kind of 'skill': being able to manage your selfsustain effectively, to have higher coverage of barriers to mitigate

I really don't understand why we're advocating for replacing Heals with shields, this just shifts the powercreep of the tanks into shield HP. As a Paladin it's Not the self healing that keeps me alive in AOE It's the sheer mitigation value I have, if you've played tank outside warrior you'd notice this.

Its the combination of 'being able to mitigate so much, that the incoming damage is such a small number' in combination with 'the amount of selfhealing the tank brings'. Look again at PLD. Every 22ish sec, you get 1000p of healing for free, via Holy Sheltron, on top of it mitigating for so much. Every 1min, you get, say, 3 Divine Might procs, a Confiteor, and 3 Blades, each giving you 400p of healing when used. So in total, you're getting like... 5800p? of healing, by just playing your job and pressing buttons you'd already be pressing because they're part of your rotation/they've also got mitigative effects. It's not just that your mitigation kit is strong, it's that you've got so much incidental healing coming in supplementing it.

Now, you bring up Guardian. Yes, Guardian is strong. It should be, it's a 2min CD. When it's not available, you're using other mitigations, and healing HP with your actions. When you restore HP, you don't lose it again until the enemy takes it from you. When you press Guardian, you get 1000p worth of 'HP' via the barrier, yes, but at the end of Guardian's duration, you lose that barrier whether it was consumed or not. That's the point of the change: If you play sloppy and just hit whatever, whenever, you'll open up too many holes in your mitigation coverage, and take 'real damage' more often. 'Real damage' that you would no longer be able to simply heal through via Holy Spirits/Confiteor/Blades, or Bloodwhetting, or Aurora.

Out of all the Tanks, DRK is the 'least problematic' when it comes to this topic. People complain about '1DRK 3 DPS' EX roulette runs FAR less than WAR or PLD being in one. Why is that, when DRK's mitigation kit is so damn strong? It's simple: It's got the least selfhealing by far. It's very barrier-focused, with TBN, and when TBN isn't up, it's taking 'real damage' that it can't heal back easily (Abyssal Drain has a 1min CD). DRK is the proof, I'd argue, that such a change would work extremely well.

[Rithy255]

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I don't disagree that the healing plays a part in how strong the mitigation is both play a part into making a system where tanks are invincible even my listed examples of reducing tank's kits I said I would have entirely removed all healing from the magic blades combo as I stand by that, I don't think we need to remove Holy sheltrons healing if we keep other aspects of sustain on other tanks.

Guardian shouldn't be a 2minute cooldown it should just be weaker, adding barriers to cooldowns like suggested would open for more opportunity to cycle it so you still take barely any damage, instead of self healing now you just use your barrier + mitigation cooldown for high damage instances, I'd assume if you wanted to add barriers to more tank defensives you'd likely go for short cooldowns like holysheltron and HOC but having them up so often would lead to them never taking much damage in the first place

Funny you bring Dark knight up because the fact is 1 tank and 3 DPS runs are still EASILY done with dark knight, I know I can do a run as Dark knight healerless, people don't mention it enough because they see big unga bunga warrior and think "well OBVIOUSLY its the self healing that's the problem" when for the entire time im practically screaming and shouting that self healing isn't the only issue and If you played tank you would know that it isn't a simple self healing issue. (Though again as i've said a thousand of times yes it plays a big part into the issue)

Lastly even if we removed all self healing and I mean all self healing from everyjob for the sake of healers, even without turning things into barriers, you would still BARELY need to heal maybe throwing one ogcd heal once every two minutes is exhilarating gameplay for you and what exactly you want from healer, It's certainly not what I want we need to tackle, The Mitigation, the Self healing, the encounters, how item level synchs if you want a proper system that actually works for all roles.

We will not get anywhere better if we only look at one aspect of the problem and ignore the rest, Removing self healing doesn't solve the issue unless your issue is "how dare other jobs have some healing cooldowns I want to throw my one ogcd heal and my one aoe heal every few minutes so I have fun" How about we actually design a team game where healers are actually healing tanks that take actual damage.

I'll lastly say this again I do not want to play immortal mitigation simulator as a tank I want to play a Support role who protects my team.

[Supersnow845]

snip

You talk as if people are hyperfixating on tank sustain as the ONLY problem and the flawed approach of that when nobody who spends more than 5 seconds looking at the interlinked problems of tanks and healers thinks that’s the only problem.

We all know healer kits are bloated, we know damage is too low, we know that item level sync is messed up in this game. They are all interlinked problems.

HOWEVER, for the purpose of what OP is discussing; where the tanks simply kept each other alive with the rest of the party dead with little to no effort or skill or even knowledge of the encounter that problem is first and foremost a tank healing problem. Nerfing tank sustain won’t “fix” healers but it is one element of the puzzle and the largest element that contributes to OP’s problem. That’s why it’s the central focus of this thread. Removing tank healing won’t fix healers, it will fix OP’s problem for 99% of the untalented playerbase