We need to do something about Tanks and Outgoing Damage from Bosses

[Davixxa]

Skill issue or not, the devs also are just making content that's way too hard for the average player. I'm personally getting sick and tired of dungeons with mechanics that would feel right at home in extreme trials, with similar levels of punishment for failure. It's getting extremely annoying. And given what I've seen from both 7.1 and 7.2, the devs want to turn this game into something it just flat wasn't endwalker started this slow slide towards insanity on mechanics design.

Disregarding my opinions on difficulty and encounter design, if you say, in chat, to please wipe, and the tanks continue the fight, then report them. It's considered griefing to keep a fight running if people ask for them to wipe.

As for concerns with tank design and balance, this issue is a massive can of worms and I feel deserves an entire post detailing all the many and myriad problems plaguing encounter and class design. It's an incredibly complicated subject, but it actually owes its roots in what I also brought up -- that the encounters are getting too hard. FFXIV needs a reset and rethink on how classes should be designed, and how encounters engage with the classes. Normal raids don't need to be braindead easy, but it shouldn't feel like an extreme trial from stormblood either.

What do you mean Endwalker started this slow slide towards insanity on mechanics design? Matoya's Relict and Pagl'than on release were harder than any MSQ dungeon Endwalker had to offer. Endwalker's dungeons were genuinely something where I had to turn my brain off to even do them. As a healer, the only time they got fun was when the tank was bad.

Zeromus and Rubicante were mildly difficult on release, the latter mostly because its telegraphs were a bit weird, the former because it was kind of a fast fight. But those are also trials, not dungeons.

I agree we need a reset and rethink on how classes should be designed. That much I do agree with because job diversity is kinda awful at the moment, but I don't think there's a genuine problem with current fight design. 7.2's fights have been awesome. Not so easy as to be a slog, but easy enough that you can intuit them after 1 wipe if you read ability names, use basic pattern recognition, and look around the arena and at what the boss is doing. The only fight I think genuinely might be too hard for casual play is M7.

[Voryn]

Only adding enrages won’t solve the entire issue. A normal raid dps check that’s at the level of “eight casual players can reliably win, even if there’s a few deaths across the team” will easily be beatable with dead healers if at least a couple living players know how to do their rotations, and if the tanks and dps can keep the remaining players alive. Other people would need to die too. There has to be enough damage where only healers can deal with it, either in the usual output (like in M3 Normal) or when not everyone is alive to do a mechanic (like when there’s party stacks, or P10 Normal’s towers -> harrowing hell). Then eventually only the tanks are alive and they can’t beat the enrage even if they’re good at doing damage.

I’m not sure if taking away healing from tanks is a good idea because then a duty finder party might be more likely to be trapped by bad healers, especially when this game’s normal content currently does not teach people how to play their jobs properly. And this is a playerbase where there’s white mages that get mad if you ask them to use Cure 2.

[CaptainLagbeard]

Only adding enrages won’t solve the entire issue. A normal raid dps check that’s at the level of “eight casual players can reliably win, even if there’s a few deaths across the team” will easily be beatable with dead healers if at least a couple living players know how to do their rotations, and if the tanks and dps can keep the remaining players alive. Other people would need to die too. There has to be enough damage where only healers can deal with it, either in the usual output (like in M3 Normal) or when not everyone is alive to do a mechanic (like when there’s party stacks, or P10 Normal’s towers -> harrowing hell). Then eventually only the tanks are alive and they can’t beat the enrage even if they’re good at doing damage.

I’m not sure if taking away healing from tanks is a good idea because then a duty finder party might be more likely to be trapped by bad healers, especially when this game’s normal content currently does not teach people how to play their jobs properly. And this is a playerbase where there’s white mages that get mad if you ask them to use Cure 2.

Taking away Tanks abilities to heal others is definitely one of the things that would help, and for the most part reducing their self healing in general as well. It would solve part of the issues with healers as well as they currently don't need to learn their job as tanks do it for them.

[Kes13a]

Only adding enrages won’t solve the entire issue. A normal raid dps check that’s at the level of “eight casual players can reliably win, even if there’s a few deaths across the team” will easily be beatable with dead healers if at least a couple living players know how to do their rotations, and if the tanks and dps can keep the remaining players alive. Other people would need to die too. There has to be enough damage where only healers can deal with it, either in the usual output (like in M3 Normal) or when not everyone is alive to do a mechanic (like when there’s party stacks, or P10 Normal’s towers -> harrowing hell). Then eventually only the tanks are alive and they can’t beat the enrage even if they’re good at doing damage.

I’m not sure if taking away healing from tanks is a good idea because then a duty finder party might be more likely to be trapped by bad healers, especially when this game’s normal content currently does not teach people how to play their jobs properly. And this is a playerbase where there’s white mages that get mad if you ask them to use Cure 2.

ah yes, healers are the fail point again.

why are healers bad? couldnt be because there are no option to TEACH them how to heal. why not give tanks the best damage and able to heal since dps is the new fail point. healer s are bad because the game is not designed to teach them how to heal when things get 'exciting'. SE has taken so much "stress" off the healers that mos of them couldnt apply a bandaid let alone a healing spell. so yeah, lets keep buffing the tanks and let them keep something thats not part of their job... its worked so well thus far.

[Heavenchild]

Okay, lets make it much more simple and functional for most content: (for group content involing other players)
-> If everyone else is dead, and just tank oder tanks are left with the boss, then they will get wiped after 5 min.

So tanks can stay as they are. And all other players are protected from some weirdos, who for example think it's a good idea to make a 20min solo show. xD

[RedLolly]

Honestly I don't understand why tanks have so much self-sustain when the DPS jobs don't require anything close to that and are expected to still clear everything.

Meanwhile, healers get by despite their crappy damage output because of those heals, tanks should be completing content by leveraging their high defense and enormous health pools.

[Heavenchild]

I see. There seems to be no real interest in solutions other than 'make tanks weaker'. In this case: I hope the devs are more creative or do nothing about it. :c

[Supersnow845]

I see. There seems to be no real interest in solutions other than 'make tanks weaker'. In this case: I hope the devs are more creative or do nothing about it. :c

The problem is tanks are too strong

Why isn’t the solution make tanks weaker?

Didn’t we just have 2 whole patches of the forums howling that “buffing everything around PCT doesn’t work”. Does the same not apply here

Or are we going to start making new system changes like “force tank wipe” just to avoid hurting tank feelings

[CaptainLagbeard]

I see. There seems to be no real interest in solutions other than 'make tanks weaker'. In this case: I hope the devs are more creative or do nothing about it. :c

Tanks are one of the main sources of the problem, and it's not so much making them weaker as it is making them not be Healers.

[Mirikh]

I see. There seems to be no real interest in solutions other than 'make tanks weaker'. In this case: I hope the devs are more creative or do nothing about it. :c

I liked your 5 min wipe solution. Elegant and simple.