Ban premade parties in Frontline please

[Aravell]

I would argue that there is no actual skill issue in FL, because there's only so much skill you can show with such a limited amount of buttons. What people lack in FL are all the related knowledge to function properly in large-scale PvP, such as spatial awareness, map awareness, positioning, the ebb and flow of combat, etc.

If people put in an effort to learn all the FL-specific things that they need to know, the quality of matches will definitely go up. That's why I encourage the people who complain about DRK premades to play DRK for a bit, learn all the engagement methods a DRK can use and learn which one of them gets punished the hardest. Once you learn enough about DRK's methods, you'll know when a DRK dive is the most likely to happen and how to position for it, which greatly reduces your chances of dying to it.

[Mawlzy]

I dont know about that, you can definitely see the skill difference between a veteran pvp player and someone who is new to FL. but you at least hope there is a willingness to learn and improve.
But yea, the lethargic or (imo worse) deliberately detrimental players are worse and there is no excuse for Square to not deal with them. people who consistantly get 0-0-0 or 0-10+-0

Yeah that's fair. Experience for those paying attention means they position better and anticipate enemy attacks. It's quite a beautiful thing when you get a team with map sense, and the team moves with common purpose.

I would argue that there is no actual skill issue in FL, because there's only so much skill you can show with such a limited amount of buttons. What people lack in FL are all the related knowledge to function properly in large-scale PvP, such as spatial awareness, map awareness, positioning, the ebb and flow of combat, etc.

Right this is exactly what I was getting at.

[Exmo]

It doesn't matter what the map is. You can have matches in Shatter, Onsal and SR with no premades and have the same results, players bunching up and getting mass KO'd, ignoring the score and fighting 2nd/3rd place instead of 1st, self-pinching by inserting themselves into the middle of a fight instead of going to the rear of one of the opponents, staying too long on an engagement instead of disengaging to contest the next one. those aren't premade issues.

Sorry but this is just incorrect. The vast majority of bulldozing happens against premades, mainly on Shatter. Remove premades from the equation and bulldozing happens only rarely.

We're not talking about players not playing optimally, we're talking about huge differences between team performance.

It couldn't possibly be down to skill issue because when random players are on the same team as toxic premades, the random players prop up the bulldozer and benefit from it. It just doesn't make any sense that the same players are who are low skilled when against a premade are suddenly high skilled when with a premade. The skill level of the player hasn't changed. What's changed is whether they are with or against the toxic premade. Therefore, toxic premades are the main factor for team imbalances.

[ChrysOCE]

Sorry but this is just incorrect. The vast majority of bulldozing happens against premades, mainly on Shatter. Remove premades from the equation and bulldozing happens only rarely.

We're not talking about players not playing optimally, we're talking about huge differences between team performance.

It couldn't possibly be down to skill issue because when random players are on the same team as toxic premades, the random players prop up the bulldozer and benefit from it. It just doesn't make any sense that the same players are who are low skilled when against a premade are suddenly high skilled when with a premade. The skill level of the player hasn't changed. What's changed is whether they are with or against the toxic premade. Therefore, toxic premades are the main factor for team imbalances.

What about what I said is incorrect? All of that happens, regardless of the presence of premades or not. I've seen plenty of matches where there is no premade on the other team, the alliance just plays poorly and is steamrolled. No coordination, feeding other teams, no contribution to any actual attempt to pvp. You look at premades rolling over other teams and say premades are the issue. I look at it and see the players who allow themselves to be rolled over. If you want to stay on Shatter, why do so many players bunch up in middle and seemingly have no awareness when a marked DRK is running towards them? I see it. I move away. I don't get caught in the draw in or use the wall to shield. But you get 10-16 dead. They can't or won't see it. And the opponent (premade or not) has BH now. And it doesn't happen once in a match. It happens over and over.

[ChrysOCE]

I would argue that there is no actual skill issue in FL, because there's only so much skill you can show with such a limited amount of buttons. What people lack in FL are all the related knowledge to function properly in large-scale PvP, such as spatial awareness, map awareness, positioning, the ebb and flow of combat, etc.

If people put in an effort to learn all the FL-specific things that they need to know, the quality of matches will definitely go up. That's why I encourage the people who complain about DRK premades to play DRK for a bit, learn all the engagement methods a DRK can use and learn which one of them gets punished the hardest. Once you learn enough about DRK's methods, you'll know when a DRK dive is the most likely to happen and how to position for it, which greatly reduces your chances of dying to it.

Don't disagree with this at all but to me that is an expression of both skill and experience.

[Exmo]

What about what I said is incorrect? All of that happens, regardless of the presence of premades or not. I've seen plenty of matches where there is no premade on the other team, the alliance just plays poorly and is steamrolled. No coordination, feeding other teams, no contribution to any actual attempt to pvp. You look at premades rolling over other teams and say premades are the issue. I look at it and see the players who allow themselves to be rolled over. If you want to stay on Shatter, why do so many players bunch up in middle and seemingly have no awareness when a marked DRK is running towards them? I see it. I move away. I don't get caught in the draw in or use the wall to shield. But you get 10-16 dead. They can't or won't see it. And the opponent (premade or not) has BH now. And it doesn't happen once in a match. It happens over and over.

You only really see that happen when there's a premade on the field, seldom otherwise.

[Mawlzy]

You only really see that happen when there's a premade on the field, seldom otherwise.

Shatter is so different to the other maps, it almost feels like it should be left out of the discussion. I agree that mass slaughter around mid (and elsewhere) typically indicates an effective premade/shotcaller is on an enemy team. Equally, in the absence of an effective premade, the result of the match is frequently decided by the initial spawn pattern. It's a rubbish concept in which a premade can swing the result, largely because of the ineptitude of many of the players.

My two arguments against the presence of premades have been:

1. The presence of four coordinated people on one team should not have the ability to swing a win-rate from 33% to 70%+.
2. Playing with or against a premade creates dull matches, that develop the same characteristics as the awful DDR PvE in the game, and I'm playing PvP precisely to avoid such monothematic combat.

Banning premades is a solution to both problems, but discussions here have convinced me it need not be the best solution.

Unfortunately, alternative solutions (mostly involving crude matchmaking and fundamental changes in job design) are probably too much work for SQEX to implement.

And then we have the promised role actions coming in 7.2.

I'd like to be optimistic, but I'm pretty sure these will make the current situation even worse. Any increase in skill expression while maintaining a burst-heavy meta is likely to increase the efficacy of premades.

[Exmo]

Shatter is so different to the other maps, it almost feels like it should be left out of the discussion. I agree that mass slaughter around mid (and elsewhere) typically indicates an effective premade/shotcaller is on an enemy team. Equally, in the absence of an effective premade, the result of the match is frequently decided by the initial spawn pattern. It's a rubbish concept in which a premade can swing the result, largely because of the ineptitude of many of the players.

My two arguments against the presence of premades have been:

1. The presence of four coordinated people on one team should not have the ability to swing a win-rate from 33% to 70%+.
2. Playing with or against a premade creates dull matches, that develop the same characteristics as the awful DDR PvE in the game, and I'm playing PvP precisely to avoid such monothematic combat.

Banning premades is a solution to both problems, but discussions here have convinced me it need not be the best solution.

Unfortunately, alternative solutions (mostly involving crude matchmaking and fundamental changes in job design) are probably too much work for SQEX to implement.

And then we have the promised role actions coming in 7.2.

I'd like to be optimistic, but I'm pretty sure these will make the current situation even worse. Any increase in skill expression while maintaining a burst-heavy meta is likely to increase the efficacy of premades.

Agreed on almost all accounts (the exception being that segregation of premades and solos is not the best solution). To be honest there's many problems with PvP currently, and while eliminating premades only addresses one big problem, it addresses it well.

I've played with and against premades on maps other than Shatter where the premade is sufficiently coordinated to steamroll opponents. Although they can be combatted easier than on Shatter, it requires some coordination and cooperation from the whole team. For example, on seal rock, I've seen a premade push an enemy team for 20 seconds, pull back for 20 seconds, then sweep in again like a tide, decimating the enemy. The reason it mainly happens on Shatter and not the other maps is because of various factors that make steamrolling much easier on Shatter (like you've said). On seal rock or the nadaam, they have to put in more effort to keep the death ball rolling, it's harder and it threatens their win rate. Most of these toxic premades don't actually like to have to put in effort so they don't bother, if they can just wait a day or two for Shatter to be on the menu.

Even if Shatter were removed or reworked, the toxic premades will rework their strategy or their mentality, but they won't vanish.

[Aravell]

I've played with and against premades on maps other than Shatter where the premade is sufficiently coordinated to steamroll opponents. Although they can be combatted easier than on Shatter, it requires some coordination and cooperation from the whole team. For example, on seal rock, I've seen a premade push an enemy team for 20 seconds, pull back for 20 seconds, then sweep in again like a tide, decimating the enemy. The reason it mainly happens on Shatter and not the other maps is because of various factors that make steamrolling much easier on Shatter (like you've said). On seal rock or the nadaam, they have to put in more effort to keep the death ball rolling, it's harder and it threatens their win rate. Most of these toxic premades don't actually like to have to put in effort so they don't bother, if they can just wait a day or two for Shatter to be on the menu.

It actually looks more like you're complaining about Shatter as a map then trying hard to pin the entirety of the problems all on the premades.

You said yourself that it's possible to push premades back in all the other maps but it's harder in Shatter. Does that not indicate clearly that your problem is with Shatter rather than premades? Shatter is a map that favours deathballs after all, so if the map gets changed to have less chokepoints (like reintroducing the second ramp on the big ice), a lot of the problems would be solved.

[OliviaLugria]

It actually looks more like you're complaining about Shatter as a map then trying hard to pin the entirety of the problems all on the premades.

You said yourself that it's possible to push premades back in all the other maps but it's harder in Shatter. Does that not indicate clearly that your problem is with Shatter rather than premades? Shatter is a map that favours deathballs after all, so if the map gets changed to have less chokepoints (like reintroducing the second ramp on the big ice), a lot of the problems would be solved.

Not really certain that more ramps would “help…” Shatter just has several mechanics that favor teams that play consistently well the entire match.

I’d also have to disagree about the amount of skill expression there is with the few amount of buttons there are since people can’t seem to actually press them or know what they do. I don’t think anyone would enjoy APM being a major factor in PvP performance either…

You’re right about people having no idea about large scale combat though. Spiral awareness, map flow, positioning… if only there were some sort of guide that taught that.