#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[Supersnow845]

No, I've been saying from the very beginning that Sage and Scholar are simply different, and that neither one is better or worse than the other.

I have also laid out what I consider to be meaningful differences between the classes.

I also discussed barriers for further differentiation.

You say that Eukrasia isn't bad, but then you lay out all the reasons you don't like it. Usually when something is referred to as a "blatant rip-off", that means its considered bad. If all you do is criticize, then I'm going to reach the logical conclusion that you think it's bad. If you don't think its bad, then tell me what you like about it.

I said that addersgall is a rip off- because that’s what it is. I have zero positive to say about addersgall, it is the worst healer system by a country mile

Eukrasia isn’t bad, it’s under-utilised. I like the augmentation angle and I like the fact that it COULD be used to meaningfully reduce button space, the sound of eukrasia is also 11/10 SFX design, one of the best sound designs in the entire game.

My problem comes from the fact that eukrasia doesn’t add anything to SGE IN ITS CURRENT FORM. You refresh your DOT once per 30 seconds and if you want to GCD shield you basically always want the eukrasian version…………making it exactly the same as how SCH refreshes thier DOT and presses succor/adlo. I think that CONCEPTUALLY the eukrasia system controlling the DOT is interesting, in practice it adds nothing to the class. And that’s my wider problem with SGE/SCH. There is a lot of “differences” if you ignore the fact that when you are using these skills the differences end up functionally meaningless. Pressing eukrasia to access a DOT you were going to press anyway is not a meaningful difference, putting a buff on the tank and then healing when you press your damage button is not meaningfully different to summoning eos and having her cast embrace

Think of this way I transplanted my mitigation plan 1 for 1 from SCH to SGE in multiple savages and had literally zero problems, if I pressed holos I pressed expedience, if I pressed indom I pressed ixochole and so on. I shouldn’t be able to transplant a mitigation plan with zero changes and have it not just work, but work near flawlessly: this tells me the classes only have superficial differences

[YarnMage48]

I said that addersgall is a rip off- because that’s what it is. I have zero positive to say about addersgall, it is the worst healer system by a country mile

Eukrasia isn’t bad, it’s under-utilised. I like the augmentation angle and I like the fact that it COULD be used to meaningfully reduce button space, the sound of eukrasia is also 11/10 SFX design, one of the best sound designs in the entire game.

My problem comes from the fact that eukrasia doesn’t add anything to SGE IN ITS CURRENT FORM. You refresh your DOT once per 30 seconds and if you want to GCD shield you basically always want the eukrasian version…………making it exactly the same as how SCH refreshes thier DOT and presses succor/adlo. I think that CONCEPTUALLY the eukrasia system controlling the DOT is interesting, in practice it adds nothing to the class. And that’s my wider problem with SGE/SCH. There is a lot of “differences” if you ignore the fact that when you are using these skills the differences end up functionally meaningless. Pressing eukrasia to access a DOT you were going to press anyway is not a meaningful difference, putting a buff on the tank and then healing when you press your damage button is not meaningfully different to summoning eos and having her cast embrace

Think of this way I transplanted my mitigation plan 1 for 1 from SCH to SGE in multiple savages and had literally zero problems, if I pressed holos I pressed expedience, if I pressed indom I pressed ixochole and so on. I shouldn’t be able to transplant a mitigation plan with zero changes and have it not just work, but work near flawlessly: this tells me the classes only have superficial differences

I see I see. Well we like the same things as least.

Do you also hate Aetherflow? If not, what makes you hate Addersgall specifically? Not being critical just curious.

I am curious too about the transplantation of your heal plan. Holos also has a heal, did you not utilize the heal, was it not needed? Did you hit something else to replace it, or did your co-healer have to adjust? Did you use Pnuema and Panhaima? What did those transfer as?

[Supersnow845]

I see I see. Well we like the same things as least.

Do you also hate Aetherflow? If not, what makes you hate Addersgall specifically? Not being critical just curious.

I am curious too about the transplantation of your heal plan. Holos also has a heal, did you not utilize the heal, was it not needed? Did you hit something else to replace it, or did your co-healer have to adjust? Did you use Pnuema and Panhaima? What did those transfer as?

I hate addersgall because it’s just aetherflow. Aetherflow was designed as it is and is balanced well against energy drain and dissipation, the skills aetherflow offers are diverse and have good niches (sacred soil is too strong but that’s a different argument) but my problem with addersgall is that it’s just aetherflow with none of aetherflow’s nuance, 2 of its skills are completely identical, a third is functionally identical and one has a slightly different niche but still broadly used in the same situation. Also dumping druachole stacks for mana is probably the worst mana economy decision this game has ever given birth to. The skills also just don’t fit well into SGE’s kit, like indom exists because in ARR SCH had almost no AOE healing outside of succor. So it was given indom because SCH’s lack of AOE healing was damaging WHM’s mana economy, why does SGE need indom? It’s arguable these days that even SCH needs indom

And with the heal plan panhaima is just seraph and pnuema can be substituted with recitation indom. It’s rare I use holos heal rather than its mitigation but if needed that can be subbed with blessing

[YarnMage48]

I hate addersgall because it’s just aetherflow. Aetherflow was designed as it is and is balanced well against energy drain and dissipation, the skills aetherflow offers are diverse and have good niches (sacred soil is too strong but that’s a different argument) but my problem with addersgall is that it’s just aetherflow with none of aetherflow’s nuance, 2 of its skills are completely identical, a third is functionally identical and one has a slightly different niche but still broadly used in the same situation. Also dumping druachole stacks for mana is probably the worst mana economy decision this game has ever given birth to. The skills also just don’t fit well into SGE’s kit, like indom exists because in ARR SCH had almost no AOE healing outside of succor. So it was given indom because SCH’s lack of AOE healing was damaging WHM’s mana economy, why does SGE need indom? It’s arguable these days that even SCH needs indom

And with the heal plan panhaima is just seraph and pnuema can be substituted with recitation indom. It’s rare I use holos heal rather than its mitigation but if needed that can be subbed with blessing

How exactly are the addersgall skills lacking in nuance compared to aetherflow? Why do you think using addersgall stacks as the mana regen system is bad?

As far as heal plans go, it sounds like you've made things fit your play style, but I wouldn't say that those are all equivalent skills used in equivalent ways. Pnuema is on its own CD, and can be paired with Zoe for extra potency. Using Recitation to boost the potency of Indom into matching Pneuma's base potency is way to make a similar effect, but they are in no way the same skill. If you aren't using the full potential of Holos, well, that's your own choice. But again, that doesn't make it the same as Expedient. Were these clears around the same time and/or near release, when differences in heal plans will be felt more?

[Supersnow845]

How exactly are the addersgall skills lacking in nuance compared to aetherflow? Why do you think using addersgall stacks as the mana regen system is bad?

As far as heal plans go, it sounds like you've made things fit your play style, but I wouldn't say that those are all equivalent skills used in equivalent ways. Pnuema is on its own CD, and can be paired with Zoe for extra potency. Using Recitation to boost the potency of Indom into matching Pneuma's base potency is way to make a similar effect, but they are in no way the same skill. If you aren't using the full potential of Holos, well, that's your own choice. But again, that doesn't make it the same as Expedient. Were these clears around the same time and/or near release, when differences in heal plans will be felt more?

They are lacking in nuance because they are COPIES, I don’t know how to make this any clearer. The skills were added to SCH’s kit over time to fulfil particular niches then SGE just dumped them in their kit with almost nothing changed for no reason than to fill out its kit. Let me ask you this. Why does SGE need the skills SCH learned overtime to fill out its kit rather than them actually introducing unique skills (and tying them to SGE’s actual unique systems). Why when they made addersgall did they go

1) direct heal 600 potency no CD check
2) 400 potency AOE direct heal 30 second CD check
3) 10% mitigation bubble that gets a 550 potency regen at 78 30 second CD check
4) single target higher potency than 1) with additional effect 45 second CD check
5) extra gauge generator on a long CD check
6) 3 per minute + extra gauge generator check

Like they didn’t even TRY to pretend they didn’t just rip off aetherflow. And this extends to other skills as well. Like soteria, it’s SGE’s answer to aetherpact, but aetherpact wasn’t there to be a heal channeller of a higher potency than embrace, it was a replacement for the fact that embrace used to be targeted. So soteria has completely missed the point of what aetherpact exists Is it really so strange to fondly remember the original and hate the blatant rip off? Mana regen on addersgall feels bad because it removes the nuance of SCH’s cost based system. Aetherflow actions cost something you have to actively have a reason to want to press them. SGE lacks that. Because pressing them for no other reason than to put them on CD confers a benefit……namely mana regen. It’s the same problem as the modern lily system. You shouldn’t be rewarded for wasting your healing. Now personally I preferred when regen was tied to energy drain not aetherflow but regardless a system designed to confer benefits to wasting your healing is bad because the mana regen is never the difference on whether you throw out a heal or not……unless your intention is only the regen and the healing is useless

These were week 2 clears on both classes and yes the skills aren’t identical but like I said, the fact that the mit plan remotely works is the problem. Critdom+blessing equals pnuema, or expedient+blessing equals holos, whispering dawn+illumination equals physis. In a savage mit plan these tiny differences in nuance make little to no difference. SCH just splits a lot of its buttons functions while SGE combines them but they lead to the same end result

[YarnMage48]

snip

So what you are really saying is that Scholar is better because it came first. And look mate, you don't need to be condescending by using all caps. The issue is that you weren't being clear. Addersgall lacks nuance? No. If they are copies then they have the same amount of nuance. You don't like addersgall because it is a copy of aetherflow. OK. We can go from there.

The idea that Aetherflow is better because it came first is simply weak. The best airplane isn't first one to ever be made. You can hate Sage because so much is based off Scholar. That's fine for a personal grievance. But Sage being based off of a good system doesn't mean that it's worse than scholar. They can go different directions with the same base model and end with two different classes. In fact, that's exactly how we ended up with Scholar and Summoner. They both start as Arcanists, and the model branches off from there.

As you said, it took time for them to fill out Scholar and figure out how all of its skills needed to work. They then took a model that they knew worked, and started working on morphing it into a new model. It's not all the way there yet but if they work a little at a time, they'll get there. I'd much prefer that to when they reinvented the wheel, and have since spent every future expansion trying to bring AST into a good, balanced state.

Regarding one of the major deviations from Scholar, namely, the regeneration of mana through the use of Addersgall stacks, I think I understand your points. The lack of proper punctuation has made things a little hard to parse, but I think I follow. It seems that you dislike that, with both WHM and SGE, you might end up using healing skills not for the healing, but for the accumulation of a resource. Rather than making mana regen based on the accumulation of addersgall, we could instead fix this by having something to use it on other than healing. I'd like that a lot. But at the end of the day, I'm not overly hung up on having to burn a stack of addersgall for mana, if that even happens. It can only happen where I'm in an encounter long enough for Lucid Dreaming to not cover DPS mana usage while also somehow not encountering any need to heal that entire time. That's few and far between.

Rather than your initial claim that you just transferred the heal plan 1 to 1 and it worked exactly the same, you had to work out a combination of skills from Scholar to make the same effect that Sage has. it still worked but what we've learned is that the reality was different from your initial claim. You can make them work they same if you like, but they don't actually work exactly the same.

[Azurarok]

I'd much prefer that to when they reinvented the wheel, and have since spent every future expansion trying to bring AST into a good, balanced state.

The thing they keep reinventing are the cards, which are primarily dps tools. The healing kit design's been pretty static since ShB, maybe earlier than that.

In fact, it was so good in their eyes they bent the other healers to its oGCD healing design in EW, which has been one of the biggest offenders in the role's homogenization.

[Shurrikhan]

So what you are really saying is that Scholar is better because it came first.

No, Aetherflow has more it can leverage. It has a CD that comes at cost and actually adds some intensity to the situations in which you'd want to use it. Its use cases are more distinct from each other and there is greater versatility in healing/sustain options. There is an opportunity cost to heals. You have a manual generator allowing for effectively 6 charges.

SGE was left with essentially a copy-pasted version of the same system pared down of most of its skill expression and interesting levers. It's the post-Kaiten-Kenki of healer gimmicks.

Be it through Addersgall or elsewhere, SGE deserves more to make it unique.