#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[YarnMage48]

Shurrikhan and Snow have more or less said what I need to say, filler doesn't mean useless, unimportant, or the like. Just that when you have nothing else to do (DoTs are still running, buffs are up, gauge is empty, procs are spent, people don't need healing, etc.), you resort to the basic attack until you have something else to do. In the case of healers, that's Glaroilificosis, in the case of every physical job, it's the basic combo, for RDM, it's Jolt > Verthunder/Veraero, etc.

If for whatever reason Square decided to remove Warriors combos and left it with nothing but Fell Cleave, Fell Cleave becomes filler by definition. Filler isn't a bad thing, it's a necessity, but much like having a plate of only potatoes, it's boring if there's nothing else.

I mean if you want to use the term filler to mean that, then go for it I suppose. But also, for a lot of DPS classes, its about building gauge and spending gauge. You aren't falling back on filler, you're using your skills to build gauge. If that constitutes as "filler" to you... well I won't argue semantics. But it doesn't make sense to me at all. And maybe you don't mean it that way but "filler" often carries a strong negative connotation. I.e. "The last season of Naruto isn't worth watching, it's all just filler". And since there are a lot of comments that express dislike towards healer "filler" skills, it reads a lot to me like filler is being used as a negative expression. But if that's all you mean by it, then sure.

[TheDustyOne]

I mean if you want to use the term filler to mean that, then go for it I suppose. But also, for a lot of DPS classes, its about building gauge and spending gauge. You aren't falling back on filler, you're using your skills to build gauge. If that constitutes as "filler" to you... well I won't argue semantics. But it doesn't make sense to me at all. And maybe you don't mean it that way but "filler" often carries a strong negative connotation. I.e. "The last season of Naruto isn't worth watching, it's all just filler". And since there are a lot of comments that express dislike towards healer "filler" skills, it reads a lot to me like filler is being used as a negative expression. But if that's all you mean by it, then sure.

Filler only has those negative connotations in story telling to mean time-waster. Fair enough if you're looking at the word "filler" with that lens, but filler simply means something that fills time, whether that be time-wasters like beach episodes or something you do when there's nothing better to do, it's only negative if you see those things as negative. I'd rather be pressing a button in spare time than idling, so as far as I'm concerned, filler isn't negative here.

Everyone else is more or less using filler in this thread not to mean something negative, but just to describe what something is. If you can get past the bias you have of it being negative in this context, you'll more or less get what we're trying to say. Filler doesn't mean unimportant like the 10 minutes of recapping last time on One Piece, but just that time is being filled with something meaningful like dealing damage.

[YarnMage48]

That’s the thing though if you enjoy SGE in its current form then that’s totally fine, nobody said you can’t. This whole discussion started from you pointing out that you don’t feel like the “SGE is a worse SCH” topic is valid because you believe it comes from only looking at similarities and not differences. When we pointed out that to us by and large the CURRENT eukrasia system is difference for the sake of difference and not meaningful difference as every “thing” it confers SCH has an answer to then to you it seemed like we think eukrasia is bad

Eukrasia isn’t a bad system, it’s an under-utilised system that between it not doing anything terrible unique and the existence of Seraphism means that it doesn’t really act meaningfully different to what SCH does. Kardia is similar with its impact relative to the fairy. Addersgall is actually a blatant rip off of aetherflow and the rest of the unique skills have mirroring effects

No, I've been saying from the very beginning that Sage and Scholar are simply different, and that neither one is better or worse than the other.

I have also laid out what I consider to be meaningful differences between the classes.

I also discussed barriers for further differentiation.

You say that Eukrasia isn't bad, but then you lay out all the reasons you don't like it. Usually when something is referred to as a "blatant rip-off", that means its considered bad. If all you do is criticize, then I'm going to reach the logical conclusion that you think it's bad. If you don't think its bad, then tell me what you like about it.

[Azurarok]

The general design split of the four healers is

Reactive Pure - WHM
Reactive Barrier - SGE
Proactive Pure - AST
Proactive Barrier - SCH

The Reactive healers tend to be a safer choice if incoming damage is less predictable, but the Proactive pair are generally the better choice otherwise, and are usually seen as better since this game's fights are so rigidly scripted. Extremes+ enforce the script so heavily that they often don't allow recovery, which Reactive healing excels at.

Moreover, the Proactive healers are still given plenty of tools for Reactive healing that tend to be more than enough to cover the emergency heals needed in skilled hands, so ultimately they kinda end up being able to offer more to the party. Not to mention they're also the ones with raid buffs, which makes everyone's funny numbers look bigger.

[Supersnow845]

No, I've been saying from the very beginning that Sage and Scholar are simply different, and that neither one is better or worse than the other.

I have also laid out what I consider to be meaningful differences between the classes.

I also discussed barriers for further differentiation.

You say that Eukrasia isn't bad, but then you lay out all the reasons you don't like it. Usually when something is referred to as a "blatant rip-off", that means its considered bad. If all you do is criticize, then I'm going to reach the logical conclusion that you think it's bad. If you don't think its bad, then tell me what you like about it.

I said that addersgall is a rip off- because that’s what it is. I have zero positive to say about addersgall, it is the worst healer system by a country mile

Eukrasia isn’t bad, it’s under-utilised. I like the augmentation angle and I like the fact that it COULD be used to meaningfully reduce button space, the sound of eukrasia is also 11/10 SFX design, one of the best sound designs in the entire game.

My problem comes from the fact that eukrasia doesn’t add anything to SGE IN ITS CURRENT FORM. You refresh your DOT once per 30 seconds and if you want to GCD shield you basically always want the eukrasian version…………making it exactly the same as how SCH refreshes thier DOT and presses succor/adlo. I think that CONCEPTUALLY the eukrasia system controlling the DOT is interesting, in practice it adds nothing to the class. And that’s my wider problem with SGE/SCH. There is a lot of “differences” if you ignore the fact that when you are using these skills the differences end up functionally meaningless. Pressing eukrasia to access a DOT you were going to press anyway is not a meaningful difference, putting a buff on the tank and then healing when you press your damage button is not meaningfully different to summoning eos and having her cast embrace

Think of this way I transplanted my mitigation plan 1 for 1 from SCH to SGE in multiple savages and had literally zero problems, if I pressed holos I pressed expedience, if I pressed indom I pressed ixochole and so on. I shouldn’t be able to transplant a mitigation plan with zero changes and have it not just work, but work near flawlessly: this tells me the classes only have superficial differences

[YarnMage48]

Philosophia is probably the perfect example of what we are talking about. Why ISNT it a party wide kardia. Because it isn’t it pops with regular healing actions as well as damage options, and you can’t buff it with soteria. The literal one modulation tool for kardia that SGE has and one that got a baffling CD reduction in this expansion

Literally one expansion in and they are already basically dumping kardia because they want everyone to be able to use philosophia

Then using your example of ET, sure the SCH has to think ahead and gets rewarded with potentially higher HPS but does that actually affect your decision whether to use it or not……..no you both just press it during a white hole/harrowing hell style mechanic and achieve the same thing

Functionally it is a party-wide Kardia. It works similarly to Tech Step granting everyone a buff, even though there's only 1 dance partner. I can see the argument for having it be buffed by Soteria, if they want to go that direction with it.

What do you mean by saying that they are "dumping Kardia"?

For Harrowing Hell I'd be more inclined to utilize Panhaima and Holos, and focus more on maintaining shields. Since I have a co-healer, it would make more sense to let the shields stay as shields rather than dumping them for direct heals. Pepsis is more of a "I need to heal on the move" sort of situation. But, especially combined with other skills, Emergency Tactics could restore a lot of party HP very quickly. I'd find that more useful for healing in between hits of Rotten Honey in M2S, where's there's still time to get another shield out for the next hit. I mean I didn't play Scholar in M2S so maybe that's not as good in practice. I just don't think a HH type of mechanic is the best use for Pepsis/Deployment tactics.

[Supersnow845]

Functionally it is a party-wide Kardia. It works similarly to Tech Step granting everyone a buff, even though there's only 1 dance partner. I can see the argument for having it be buffed by Soteria, if they want to go that direction with it.

What do you mean by saying that they are "dumping Kardia"?

For Harrowing Hell I'd be more inclined to utilize Panhaima and Holos, and focus more on maintaining shields. Since I have a co-healer, it would make more sense to let the shields stay as shields rather than dumping them for direct heals. Pepsis is more of a "I need to heal on the move" sort of situation. But, especially combined with other skills, Emergency Tactics could restore a lot of party HP very quickly. I'd find that more useful for healing in between hits of Rotten Honey in M2S, where's there's still time to get another shield out for the next hit. I mean I didn't play Scholar in M2S so maybe that's not as good in practice. I just don't think a HH type of mechanic is the best use for Pepsis/Deployment tactics.

When I say “dumped kardia” I mean literally one expansion after SGE launched they introduced the most natural extension of the kardia system………spread kardia. THEN THEY DIDNT EVEN MAKE IT KARDIA. What does that say about their faith in the kardia system? There is zero justification for why philosophia isn’t kardia itself

If you want to take that thought even further why does SGE even have physis? Physis should have been spread kardia as SGE was sold to us as the healer that heals by doing damage. But instead of making this logic baseline conclusion they instead did a cheap copy of whispering dawn……and whispering dawn only exists because without it succor was the only AOE heal SCH had in ARR so its position within the kit actually makes sense

They seem to have no faith in their design choices for SGE, instead blindly copying SCH without understanding what people want out of SGE’s design

[YarnMage48]

The general design split of the four healers is

Reactive Pure - WHM
Reactive Barrier - SGE
Proactive Pure - AST
Proactive Barrier - SCH

The Reactive healers tend to be a safer choice if incoming damage is less predictable, but the Proactive pair are generally the better choice otherwise, and are usually seen as better since this game's fights are so rigidly scripted. Extremes+ enforce the script so heavily that they often don't allow recovery, which Reactive healing excels at.

Moreover, the Proactive healers are still given plenty of tools for Reactive healing that tend to be more than enough to cover the emergency heals needed in skilled hands, so ultimately they kinda end up being able to offer more to the party. Not to mention they're also the ones with raid buffs, which makes everyone's funny numbers look bigger.

I would say that's a good summary of the design split.

One thing I will point out is that, unless you are playing with a very good, very consistent team, you are going to have a not-insignificant amount of unpredictable damage to react to. Having the extra adaptability can be a huge boon in that scenario. But inversely, if everything goes to script, the reactive healers can manage just as well.

As far as damage is concerned, its a balance between higher overall damage potential, and party buffs. Which one is more useful to the team is going to depend on the individual party. But on average, it seems to balance out as far as damage contribution.

They all have their strengths and weaknesses, and situations that they do better or worse in.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Weeeellllll technically Eukrasia do have exactly one update in DT: E.Dyskrasia—a low bar to clear, I know. Sadly that one variant which existed in media tour build didn’t even survive the dawn of the expansion’s launch because apparently losing out 80p/minute would be so stressful… RIP media tour E.Dyskrasia. You never had a chance.

Now we’re left with an impotent variant that’s only beneficial in the nichest of niche cases. All because of the bloody 80p/minute gain.

[ForsakenRoe]

Something to note about SGE, that I think might be important to understand why people have such strong views on its implementation, is this line from the announcement back at the EW Fanfests:



People have very different perceptions of what 'augments abilities' means, I expect. For example, while some might argue that Zoe counts as this, because it empowers the next heal to be stronger, or Eukrasia counts, because it modifies the next ability's effect, I'd personally argue that 'if you're going to use the line to show how the new class is cool and hype, it'd better be something that other jobs don't do'. Zoe empowers the next one action, like Recitation does on SCH. Eukrasia modifies the effect of the next one ability, as is the case with Emergency Tactics. So, IMO, they're very lackluster displays of 'augments abilities', when compared to the high hurdle of 'this is a defining feature of the class, enough to be put on the Fanfest info slide'. For comparison, RPR's slide has this:



We can debate whether it is as dynamic as the slide claims, but it definitely does summon a voidsent to help in combat, and sometimes fuses with it. And these are things that no other class does, so it's new and hype.

When I look at 'augments abilities' on the SGE slide, one ability stands out as feeling like it does something unique, something that would set the gameplay of SGE apart from the other healers: Soteria. It's unfortunate that the balance of the job's overall kit renders Soteria a bit overshadowed, but I think that Soteria, augmenting the ability Kardia, fulfills the definition of that slide's bulletpoint the most accurately. Which is why I would like to see SE just add more Soteria-like actions to SGE, with a much shorter CD, and make SGE's defining gameplay be 'it augments Kardia to help it handle healing requirements, without having to let up on the offense'. Philosophia is a nice addition in terms of 'Kardia style heal but AOE', but A: it doesn't benefit from Soteria and B: It's got a ridiculous 3min CD. As shown in the thread I linked, I'd much prefer to have the 'augment' actions be a very low CD (eg 5s), and instead gate their use via another method, such as MP costs. That allows Kardia, and augmenting its effect, to be a much more front-and-center part of the gameplay loop, a much more active contributor to the overall healing profile of the job.

Now we’re left with an impotent variant that’s only beneficial in the nichest of niche cases. All because of the bloody 80p/minute gain.

Ah but you are completely incorrect

... its actually 60p/min, Dosis is 370p nowadays. Over the course of a 12min enocunter, that's (slightly less than) two whole Dosis casts you'd lose! /s

On the topic of it though, if they really had to make the two DOTs not stack for whatever reason, wouldn't it feel so much better if, instead of 40p for 30s, E.Dyskrasia applied the regular E.Dosis DOT (75p per tick), but for 15s? You wouldn't ever use it in single target, still (due to it overwriting), but it'd at least be worth pressing it in more AOE pulls, as it stands I find it hard to find a trash pack that actually lives for 30s