fflogs and privacy

[Aravell]

During the heat of the healstrike thread, some dude decided to make a google doc of all posters to check their logs, with the OP being harassed to no end for not having cleared any hard content, all because the posters in there wanted an improvement to the healer role.

Instead people made fun with "hurrdurr didn't clear ultimate, who are you to decide if the role is good?? lmao??" and so on.

This is why we'll never be able to have nice things, and SE will simply continue to make jobs braindead to counter this mentality, so any non-raider can clear the raids.

This is one of the major problems with the logs website. People tend to rely on it to prove their worth when it brings none, you can't have any form of discussion about this game anywhere without it eventually descending to "Erm, actually, logs".

I would have zero problem with the logs site if people would stop being a bigger tool than the logs they worship.

[Dzian]

Wanting to hide your fflogs is a massive red flag

The problem with those sites is they don't really tell you all that much at all.

You cannot for example look at a parse on fflogs and be like ok that players dragoon is i1000 and has an i950 weapon. And gear is a MAJOR component in damage, especially with the games power creep..

So while you may look at a parse see a player is green and conclude that players terrible. Maybe they're not. Maybe they're playing the job properly but don't really chase the treadmill to much. It's tedious af having to rebuild every job every patch..

It doesn't take much to drop you from lets say the 90th percentile right down to the 60s, 50s. Mayve even 40s Sometimes just 10-20 i-levels. And if your around 50% your basically "average"

Better gear alone can take a player from green to purple in some cases but players just see green and automatically conclude bad player. When in reality you can be a good or great player just not in the latest and greatest gear because treadmill is tedious af.

This is also why many players pad the level requirements on PF groups so much because gear goes an incredibly long way to cover for a bad player.

I do very much agree with the op that these things should be opt in. Not opt out. And any player dated from players not opted in should be anonymized. And show as "unknown dragoon" or something

ITo be honest, this is one of those situations where... The absence of information is almost always interpreted to be worse than the presence of it, as people can only assume the worse. So it typically does raise red flags with a lot of people due to the nature of the game.. - Now whether it should or not is a different discussion.

Not at all. In the case of an opt in system the lack of information on a player would almost always be interpreted as they havent registered to the site. Or don't even know it exists.

[Buttobi]

People saying that hiding your fflogs is a massive red flag is a massive red flag to me.

[Exmo]

We can all agree that FFLogs scrapes user data without their consent and is used for malicious purposes to intimidate and harass other players, despite how the community so highly values the privacy and safety of its members. However, it is also useful for players who want to know how to push buttons better, so it's impossible to say whether it's bad or not.

[Kohashi]

The problem with those sites is they don't really tell you all that much at all.

You talk like somebody who has no clue what they talk about yet act like they do.

FFlogs is extremely useful to tell information apart from the rhetoric here that somehow showing your logs is an infringement of your privacy.

1. You can see what gear they are using so thus make an estimated guess of their ilvl. You can even see the stats they have + materia melded in.
2. There is no playing optimally but not chasing the treadmill. You either play well and understand your class or you don't.
3. While parses are never the only indicator if somebody is good or not it's a basepoint. If somebody has BiS however they only have grey parses then something is amiss (I know cases too, funny enough)
4. Parses are influenced to a degree by how well the team also plays + RNG crits but that is mostly only for pink/ orange parses.
5. You can also further analyze a player's rotation and how well they did by looking at their casted spells in a fight.
6. You do a lot of assuming what people think. Sure some might think that but the vast majority don't care enough to do a full background check of a person's parse or rotation. You are really not that important for people to really go deep and scrutinize you.
7. FFlogs is generally used for self-improvement. It is a great tool to see where you lack and where you need to work on, you or your team, that is. It's an awesome tool to plan for example mitigations based on looking at the damage taken by the team, periods, and overall pace of the fight.

[Kaurhz]

Not at all. In the case of an opt in system the lack of information on a player would almost always be interpreted as they havent registered to the site. Or don't even know it exists.

Logically speaking, this would be the case, yes, and I do agree in principle, but with how normalized the website is already, and with the design nature of the game, and how people play the game, those same people will still only go on to assume the exact same. Granted, there's a rationalization for your logs not being visible under an opt-in system, but people can still only assume, and bias will take it towards the worst rather than the better, and people simply won't have the time to investigate each individual player first-hand to find out. If you are doing that content, then those that cared about the logs in the first place, will still care about them even under opt-in since it's the most fundamental evaluation. Logs are like a pre-screening into a players performance.

Whether I agree or disagree in principle, which in principle I do agree, but I just don't think it would change much with the community where it matters, as it has already been far too normalized in the game. Call me a pessimist.

[Valence]

We can all agree that FFLogs scrapes user data without their consent and is used for malicious purposes to intimidate and harass other players, despite how the community so highly values the privacy and safety of its members. However, it is also useful for players who want to know how to push buttons better, so it's impossible to say whether it's bad or not.

I do appreciate fflogs for things like analytics and XIVAnalysis.

[Rehayem]

This is one of the major problems with the logs website. People tend to rely on it to prove their worth when it brings none, you can't have any form of discussion about this game anywhere without it eventually descending to "Erm, actually, logs".

I would have zero problem with the logs site if people would stop being a bigger tool than the logs they worship.

I don't mind logs, they've actually helped me improve. I do have an issue with people demanding to see logs to see if you cleared content before to deduce whether you can clear the current content or if you can have any sort of opinion.

[Collin_Sky]

The problem with those sites is they don't really tell you all that much at all.

You cannot for example look at a parse on fflogs and be like ok that players dragoon is i1000 and has an i950 weapon. And gear is a MAJOR component in damage, especially with the games power creep..

So while you may look at a parse see a player is green and conclude that players terrible. Maybe they're not. Maybe they're playing the job properly but don't really chase the treadmill to much. It's tedious af having to rebuild every job every patch..

It doesn't take much to drop you from lets say the 90th percentile right down to the 60s, 50s. Mayve even 40s Sometimes just 10-20 i-levels. And if your around 50% your basically "average"

Better gear alone can take a player from green to purple in some cases but players just see green and automatically conclude bad player. When in reality you can be a good or great player just not in the latest and greatest gear because treadmill is tedious af.

This is also why many players pad the level requirements on PF groups so much because gear goes an incredibly long way to cover for a bad player.

I do very much agree with the op that these things should be opt in. Not opt out. And any player dated from players not opted in should be anonymized. And show as "unknown dragoon" or something

I lead a strong raid group, though not at a world progression level, it's still very good by most standards. I'm fully aware of the benefits and limitations of percentiles, and I recognize that focusing on them exclusively can be a trap.

When evaluating a player's performance, I look at multiple entire logs, not just the percentile. Did they die? Did they get any damage downs? If so, were those mistakes their fault? Are they using their abilities effectively? Are they managing defensives properly, and at consistent points each pull? Tools like xivanalysis are also invaluable at this point.

That said, assuming a player is well geared (near or at BiS), the percentile can still be useful at a glance:

Grey/Green: Usually indicates a death or damage down, or a fundamental misunderstanding of the job.
Blue: Shows decent job knowledge but missing key optimizations.
Purple: Shows solid proficiency.
Orange: Shows high level play, along with fight specific optimisations.
Pink/Gold: Exceptional performance, often with some RNG involved.

Healers can be trickier. A high median or lots of orange/pink parses can sometimes signal a greedy player who focuses too much on personal DPS. This approach can be problematic during progression, where sacrificing DPS for the good of the pull is the most important factor.

One important factor to note is that fflogs also has a "Today's %" feature, which is useful to show how gear progression has affected overall percentiles.

I have taken gambles on players without logs because of how I've seen them perform outside of raid. With that said, it is a gamble. Usually it goes well, because I know what I'm looking for, but at the end of the day, it's best to have actual metrics to evaluate people with.

To finish off, I will reiterate that wanting to hide all of that is a massive red flag. It is not just about percentiles, but you are signalling to me that you want to hide the entire way you play the game.

[Purrnauskis]

Yoshi-P save me the evil people are gatekeeping me from savage because of FFlogs!