fflogs and privacy

[ForteNightshade]

Looks like this thread definitely exploded heh. I just want to address this though:



Perhaps.

It definitely isn't private information for my party and my party alone, not for everyone to see. And it's also definitely not information that's persistent: once it is over, it's not stored as public data anywhere.

I'm assuming you meant "is private information for my party"

In which case, it isn't. That information is public to your party to do whatever they wish with. Someone decided to upload it to FFlogs and make it public for everyone. As you don't own the data nor is it directly tied to your personal life, there's no privacy concerns at play. That doesn't mean you can't be critical of FFlogs or outright dislike the website, but it does mean it isn't related to the stalker plugin whatsoever.

[Yeol]

Im honest, if i see someone hide his Logs (Ofc only in Savage/Extreme, everything else i dont care) i will kick him without 1 second of a thought, its not about being a bad or good player and i dont even care if he is orange or grey, the only thing which matters for me is the amount of reclears he has. So like previous people said, if someone uses fflogs to harass you just report him and move on

[Lilapop]

Someone doesn't have to be a good player to run roulettes. No one is checking your logs in roulettes. Turbocasuals seem to be a lot more obsessed with FFLogs than hardcore players. People's bad normal mode logs living rent free in their heads, lmao.

Love the tankless Prae runs, for instance. Tank has a fit and refuses to turn their stance on we keep going anyways.

[Lilapop]

It will always be seen as such. Regardless of whether it is a good mentality or not. It's very much a case of "what are you trying to hide" and a person's brain will always gravitate to negative reasons first, especially if you don't know the person. Almost all the people in this thread who want logs hidden are self-proclaimed "bad" players so you're kinda proving my point.

"ur bad or u show ur logs, 'nuff said" Is an insane take.

[Lilapop]

Maybe when fflogs was a new thing. Now it's an old, well known website it would be very much a case of "this person doesn't have an fflogs account? I will assume they don't raid and therefore are a bad player"

Not raiding = bad player is crazy. On the flipside, that would mean the act of raiding makes you a "good" player. Of course you'd disagree and go "thats different it depends on the blahblahblah." It's not black and white like that. Not raiding isn't inherently bad and raiding isn't inherently good.

[AvoSturmfaust]

There is always a chance without question but usually someone which has maybe 1-2 kills in xyz is not that comfy like someone which has 30+ clears u know? when i do reclears for savage i usually pref people which have more then 1 clear and are more comfy with the fight then people which cleared it only one time

[Lilapop]

and if logs were hidden by default you would instead be harassed with "why aren't they visible? obviously you're bad or they wouldn't be hidden"
The types of people you're worried about do not care because they are not logical people.

A lot of people aren't logical. If you're expecting gamers to operate solely on logic, you might be in the wrong place for likeminded people. Dying on this hill isn't logical, but I digress.
"why aren't they visible? obviously you're bad or they wouldn't be hidden" is more likely to get laughed out by people around them than someone bringing up specifics values and systematically telling you every little way you're terrible.

[BigCheez]

Whether hiding your logs is a problem or not really depends on what kind of player you are.

If you just run normal mode content then do what you want. In that scenario, it doesn't really matter if you have bad logs and it doesn't really matter if someone makes a judgement about you based on your logs being hidden.

Among people who run high-end content, there is a bit of stigma around hiding logs. There's a strong correlation between fflogs-hidden and people who buy clears and/or refuse to put in the bare minimum amount of effort and rely on being carried. Having your logs hidden will also make it a lot more difficult to apply for statics because people will generally want to take a cursory glance at some logs to check that you can press your buttons to some extent and hopefully use your support abilities before trialling you.

[Lilapop]

It's a question of value vs risk. The value provided by log analysis vastly outweighs the potential risk of someone laughing at someone else's grey parse.

If we're making comparisons to the stalker plogon:

• FFLogs provides legitimate value that has a positive impact on people's gameplay experience. The stalker plogon does not.
• FFLogs does not provide anyone with information that can be used to inhibit your ability to to play the game. The stalker plogon does.
• The data stored on FFLogs cannot be used nefariously by the developers. The data stored by the stalker plogon can.*

*Remember that PlayerScope is still storing your data whether you opt out or not (it just isn't publicly available if you opt out) and we already know that the plugin was developed so that the developer could track who was undercutting him on the marketboard.

It's pretty simple from my point of view. FFLogs is a useful tool that doesn't have much potential to cause harm. The stalker plogon doesn't really do anything useful unless you're specifically looking for additional information about someone that you can use to harass them. You aren't supposed to be able to see someone's alts or their retainers. Given how salty some weirdos get over marketboard activity (or other benign in-game interactions), I don't think making this information publicly available is a good idea. It also enables a lot of other weirdo stalking behaviour.

The stalker thing is downright malicious, yes. But the people failing to realize FFLogs potential to be malicious as well are simply naive. In a perfect world it's a near perfect tool. We're not in a perfect world, people don't always use information they have with the best of intentions. I agree it has its uses, but I also also see the flipside.

[Lilapop]

By this logic, we should ban chat. After all, people harass in chat and say mean things, right? Doesn't matter if it's an exceedingly low number and the vast majority interactive normally or don't say anything at all. If any harassment happens whatsoever, ban the thing!

Most people using FFlogs only care about their performance or how your performance affects it, and whether or not they want to be in a party with you. In the latter case, they'll simply leave without saying a word. Do some people harass? Of course. Just like some people harass in PvP or shout chat or hunt trains. Some people are simply jerks. That doesn't mean everyone is. And very few people care about logs outside of high end content. Hence why you can parse 99 in a 24 man by simply having a pulse. Heck, I had someone in M2N a few months back deliberately wipe the party because he was trying to parse normal. The in game chat made fun of him. He didn't harass anyone, he got "harassed". That's in a random DF queue. Which highlights just how much of a meme people think parsing in normal content is.

The only reason you hear about harassment more regarding FFlogs is the same reason Tales of Duty Finder exists: people only talk about the memorable bad encounter they had, not the endlessly forgettable good encounters that are the norm.

Did they not do exactly that with certain modes of pvp...?
"Most people" to be exact care about as fast and efficient runs as possible, if telling someone off will get them to that, they'll do it, pretending this doesn't happen or hasn't happened is just silly.