Maybe it's time for a casual "strike" if not complete departure.

[Saraide]

I'm not sure either. But I was playing a lot. Maybe, I just struggling with MSQ and I didn't realise it. Finding ways to flesh things out and mix things up. A couple of weeks for MSQ doesn't sound wrong though? You farm a few glams along the way. FATES, one crafter to 100. Then there are Normals to farn for a bit of gear. And Extreemes to prog. Its about a week per extreme.
I was not alone in taking that long. It was just the savage raiders who were done.
I still think you all must just crazy rushing things to be ready for savage in four weeks. Doing nothing that doesn't work towards savage, not playing with your sports etc.
Four weeks just seems nuts. I don't get it.

Progging an ex trial for an entire week seems a bit long. It sounds like that's eating up much of your time. Usually that's done in a lockout or two.

[Erzaa]

That is when casual Extreme blind progs, can become 'futile'.
(Maybe casual Extreeme isn't possible. But I'm not convinced.)

Honestly, I don't know know if it is. I've seen it argued that it's not possible because of the game's strict adherence to pattern recognition and memorisation. I've also seen it argued that they'll never move away from such a playstyle because of the way the game works with regard to netcode and snapshotting.

It might right, it might wrong.

But the reality is, I'm not a game or battle content designer, so I can't say.

All I can say is that, the current game modes past casual (with the exception of deep dungeons which I love), are not for me and never will be.

[Buttobi]

In the last couple pages this thread has devolved into arguing the semantics of what is casual and what is hardcore content. This discussion misses the point completely. The problem is that there is just a big gap in the spectrum of difficulty between normal raids/dungeons/normal trials and the next hardest thing: ex trials.

Difficulty in games needs to be gradual. Ex trials are just a huge spike in difficulty from the next hardest thing (raids, dungeons, trials). Now I am not saying make ex trials easier, but the devs have now spent too many years not filling this gap between these 2 types of content. Endwalker had literally nothing filling this gap of difficulty. I know Dawntrail won't make the same mistake but the fact that this content is always so backloaded into the expansion is just disheartening. People's patience is wearing thin. This gap in difficulty is probably the biggest reason people are so divisive over the meaning of "casual" and "hardcore", but we need to look at it from a different perspective than what we label it as.

[Gurgeh]

Progging an ex trial for an entire week seems a bit long. It sounds like that's eating up much of your time. Usually that's done in a lockout or two.

Perhaps if you are doing it when it comes out with all the savage players, but if you are doing it when I do it (late but still high end), then a group is typically only able to clear 2 to 3 new mechanics per lookout.
There are one of two people to bring up to speed in the first 10 - 20, then inconsistency hits, then you see and practice a new mech then another. (Possibly more depending)

Ex3 was consistently, working out meteors and you will see a bit of ice. No ilvl requirement and you see a 'lot' of average less than min +5. Learning ice and you might 'just' see P3.
'mostly got ice down' and yes you might then get though P3 in just part of a lockout.
But everyone has to get through meteors and ice and doing 'no guide needed' that's, at least 2 lockouts on just those two, by the time you've brought people up to speed here and there.
You can see they think they know the earlier mechanics, but there is a bit here and there they don't realise they are just fluking.
(I think there is a lot of [stupid] assumption that other people should know they don't know a phase, when actually they honestly think they do but have just fluked it)
Add a day for a PF where you make no progress because you're just helping people get consistent at a previous P they've probably just limping through before now.
Add another two for time for the bits before and after maybe a bit of trouble with DPS check or the enrage.
Well now we are up to five days.
Lose another 2 because no prog attempted because IRL and this casual.

I have to wonder if these 1 or 2 lockout clears are actually all guided, day 1 with studied Savage and ultimate raiders and their gear, people who bail and find another party if meteors isn't cleared 3rd pull for a bit of ice prog.

All of which is different because none of that is 'casual'.

[Lilapop]

Your point is... 'the' point.
But sadly it doesn't change the reality of the game. I had two weeks off work.
I went back and looked at the dedicated Gpose diary I kept if my DT adventure. It was wonderful. Poses at vistas. A new glam ever 3 MSQ levels. (side quests here and there, I still maintain not a lot) Lots of FATES organically (on foot still) to enjoy the zones.

I was still 'enjoying' MSQ on 20th July, including that 2 weeks off.
I still wouldn't want to do the next expansion differently either. I want to spend 2/3 weeks making the story and the new zones 'feel big', like an epic adventure.
Sadly though, I'm really bored of the casual battle content (such is barely 'playable' content it's so lacking in 'resistance')

So for me, this game can have no future. It's time for me to progress to end game, but how I play is not 'organised' and 'goal oriented' enough. And I absolutely do not want to 'organise' my gaming. It's not why I do any gaming.
I do think it's a shame. I'd only need 2/3 extra weeks, and this casual player might not need to ask for more casual content. Further more high end are going to have months and months of nothing by end expansion. So what's the hurry?
Oh well it's irrelevant.
I know it is fact, from outside these forums, that I am not alone, in it being the game's schedule that is the problem with high end. We were a casual group, that had been mentored by a high end group and came together over extremes, and the new expansion just split us up again, they were 'all' done with MSQ in about 3 days.

Now I think about it, I suggest it might be this schedule that is 'filtering' out players who are happy to do high end, but do not 'massively' 'enjoy' being goal oriented above all else. And so PF is full of the sort of people who abandon before a third pull.

However, I do recognise that does not at all mean that there are very many more than that handful of people I did know who are like minded.

imo, just play how you'd like to play. you don't have to organize your playtime to the extent others do, you're gonna find like-minded players eventually; there's more high-end content coming than casual content afaik, could be wrong though.

[TemporalFruitsAndVeggies]

Help me see where I am going wrong. If we are using total time investment as a metric for hardcore, then are we saying relics (outside of EW) are considered hardcore? Because I'm pretty sure some of them took longer than 10 hours to do, and I don't think I've seen anyone say relics are hardcore content.

I think the flaw with your numbers (which I'm hoping you'll clarify) is that it seems to think that every pull is going 10 minutes, and that is not the case, especially early in prog on a specific fight.

Yeah, maybe I didn't explain well. The ratio is of total time investment to the total time the content takes to execute properly. For example, a properly executed Savage boss kill generally takes ten minutes, but it can take ten or more hours of practice to get to the point where you have that proper ten-minute execution. The ratio is even more extreme for Ultimates.

Getting a relic weapon, on the other hand, is not really a matter of execution; it is, by design, something that takes weeks or months of grinding easy content. You never struggle to complete that content; you just need to do it over and over and over. Its ratio of total time investment to total time it takes to "execute properly" is 1:1.

Also remember that the ratio is not indicative of total hours spent, and that "casual" vs. "hardcore" gamer is not the same as "casual" vs. "hardcore" content. Lots of people play this game eight or more hours a day; they are, objectively, hardcore gamers, playing FFXIV as if it's a job. But they may never once touch hardcore content.

[AllenThyl]

This thread has deteriorated to an unbelievable degree and revealed some posters here to hold quite the disturbing views.

I giggled.

Static? Where I must apply like a job? With curriculum, interview and all? To be even more judged by toxic hardcore players?

Discord? Where hardcore players can speak their minds without limits and be as toxic as they want without risk being banned?

Any other suggestion?

Statics are groups that will spend a significant amount of time with each other, to work towards a shared goal with a shared set of rules. Each static will set its own rules and searching for likeminded individuals. And statics are just as diverse as any other group. Beginner friendly statics often require nothing of members beside showing up in some reasonable gear and food, and the most basic motivation to do the content. Further, just as statics are searching for individuals that fit, individuals search for groups that they fit in in turn. This whole "all hardcores are toxic on discord" is just a cheap cop out and excuse you tell yourself, and it's a deeply dishonest one, and incredibly rude on top of it. There are groups that are acceptable of very crude behavior and don't take the raiding serious at all, there are some groups highly professional when it comes to decorum and discipline. That's why tryouts for an evening are important.

Again, have none of you ever been in any sports club, or any other group activity? No table top gaming, no kitchen table Magic, no music bands, football team? Spent whole life only in front of some display?

"Raiding" in this game is actually "how well can i understand and memorize a guide"

There are statics that clear raid tiers completely blind. I know one containing pretty good players, and it simply takes them a few weeks longer because they work out every mechanic for themselves. That's just how they want to do it, and there is no problem with that at all. What they DO have to do though, is to figure out ways to solve the mechanics the bosses throw at them while dealing enough dps. I mean, how else would difficult content work? It wouldn't be difficult if it could be cleared when having no clue about job rotation, while ignoring the boss mechanics.

and "this has to be done as fast and efficiently as possible" and "anyone who's worse or slower than me should quit the game."

100% pure, distilled persecution complex. Frankly, you painting the whole raiding community (which isn't some tiny fringe minority, high end content is done by a significant portion of the playerbase) that way is nothing short of vile. You have never stepped into any such groups, ever, have you?

You have to be good? Good at what? Good at memorization? What exactly takes skill in how this game handles raiding? If you said it took time of repeatedly bashing your head against the ground, then yeah, I'd agree.

In THIS game, the ability to press the correct buttons for maximum damage output while solving the various boss mechanics at the same time is the skill expression. Just like the ability to run very fast for long periods is the skill expression of marathon running, and knowledge of moves / situations as well as strategizing is the skill expression in chess. I mean, what point are you even making? Especially, when "bashing your head against the ground" is literally only viable in normal content, where a few key people can carry the rest of the team.

This is either some insane mental gymnastics or you're just trolling at this point.

Mawlzy is a performative forum poster. They were one of the people defending the OP in the thread where the OP showed a screenshot and admitted to throwing a Frontline match because "the other team had a premade, so there was nothing we could do but throw". This was in a time when Mawlzy's "rEsIsTaNcE" shtick was still focused on "premades are the problem of Frontline", and not the third to half of the playerbase who is "just here for the xp", or the literal afkers and feeders. Mawlzy has in the meantime switched their tune and is now for more measures against the afkers / leechers, but not because of some change in philosophy, but because "it's the issue more likely to be addressed by SE", their words. Simple opportunism. I mean, see here for the best Mawlzy hits: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/494715-Frontlines-sucks-Ultra-megathread?p=6575673&viewfull=1#post6575673

[AllenThyl]

Yea, but it doesn't work that way in EU/NA. And it doesn't work that way because it requires a good amount of coordination and time investment. If the content forces a player to have to allocate significant amount of time into homework and perfect coordination with other players with no mistakes (and frequently the use of tools that aren't part of the game itself), it can't be possibly be considered casual content.

The fact Japan has a different culture has no bearing on the conversation.

What does have bearing though, is the general attitude of playing a combat oriented game like FF14 which has a history and future promise of delivering more combat content, especially harder one, but somehow being averse to doing any of it, or even bothering to apply themselves at least a bit. It's like joining a tennis club for the warm up and all the social gatherings, but never bothering to play tennis except against the wall. I mean, you can do that, but the tennis club will still focus mainly on it's core activity, tennis.

In the last couple pages this thread has devolved into arguing the semantics of what is casual and what is hardcore content. This discussion misses the point completely. The problem is that there is just a big gap in the spectrum of difficulty between normal raids/dungeons/normal trials and the next hardest thing: ex trials.

Difficulty in games needs to be gradual. Ex trials are just a huge spike in difficulty from the next hardest thing (raids, dungeons, trials). Now I am not saying make ex trials easier, but the devs have now spent too many years not filling this gap between these 2 types of content. Endwalker had literally nothing filling this gap of difficulty. I know Dawntrail won't make the same mistake but the fact that this content is always so backloaded into the expansion is just disheartening. People's patience is wearing thin. This gap in difficulty is probably the biggest reason people are so divisive over the meaning of "casual" and "hardcore", but we need to look at it from a different perspective than what we label it as.

Except, there is no way to bridge this gap, because at the end of the day, it comes down to the individual's willingness to improve in the first place. Take Red Choctober in Bozja. Not respecting the mechanics there will get one (very likely) killed. It only has 3 repeating mechanics, enrage is basically when the CE timer runs out. And yet this fight keeps wiping instances regularly. Because the community in general, instead of learning how to solve the mechanics, simply views "getting rezzed through the fight" as acceptable mode of operation. The EX fights putting a stop to such behavior by wiping raids is the only way to actually get people to get their act together, by providing this hard wall. "This far, no further, unless you actually start properly doing the mechanics and learn some basic rotation of your job".

I mean, funnily enough, the normal mode encounters are often very much the learning opportunity that can serve as preparation for the higher difficulty one. For example, Ramuh (Hard) uses all the same mechanics as extreme, they just don't hit as hard. Nidhogg in the dungeon iteration now uses "Hot Wings" and "Blazing Tail" as well as the eyes. Lots of mechanics are used in normal, which one could actually sit down and learn. But since these encounters can be "yolo'd", with no hard requirement to correctly solve them, that's what's being done. I've said it before, the game offers learning opportunities left and right, they are simply wasted either actively or passively.

[Mawlzy]

Mawlzy is a performative forum poster. They were one of the people defending the OP in the thread where the OP showed a screenshot and admitted to throwing a Frontline match because "the other team had a premade, so there was nothing we could do but throw". This was in a time when Mawlzy's "rEsIsTaNcE" shtick was still focused on "premades are the problem of Frontline", and not the third to half of the playerbase who is "just here for the xp", or the literal afkers and feeders. Mawlzy has in the meantime switched their tune and is now for more measures against the afkers / leechers, but not because of some change in philosophy, but because "it's the issue more likely to be addressed by SE", their words. Simple opportunism. I mean, see here for the best Mawlzy hits: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...=1#post6575673

Allen, if people accept I am a "performative forum poster," they would likely conclude you are my agent. Your promotion of me is unparalleled, to the point of apparent obsession. The fact you manage to bring up a completely unrelated thread here to slam me shows true dedication.

My position on FL has indeed evolved. This can happen during discussions, at least for people who accept that they can be wrong about things. This does not appear to be a condition that burdens you. The fact you state categorically why my position has changed - something you cannot possibly know - is symptomatic of your unshakeable (and misplaced) confidence that you are infallible.

I should add that when you accused me of fishing for "updoots," I nearly reported you since I thought this was slang for my least favorite medical procedure. Google allowed me to learn a new word thanks to your intervention. tysm.

[Lilapop]

snip

Of course tiers are cleared, albeit not often, completely blind. They have to be for guides to even be made. Oh, is me repeating other people's experience offending you for some reason as far as my quoted phrases? So, because your experience isn't everyone else's experience, anyone who's had a different experience to you has "never stepped foot in any such groups, ever"? Pretty narrow-minded. Nor did I ever claim every single person who ever raids says things like that. If you're going to reply (days later, might I add), at least do so in good faith without looking for reasons to either be offended or refuse to acknowledge anything that doesn't line up with your own personal experience. Thankfully, not everyone is AllenThyl.