Maybe it's time for a casual "strike" if not complete departure.

[Menriq]

I'm so tired of seeing this take. Progression raiding is a hardcore MMORPG activity, full stop, because it has a very high ratio of total time investment vs. time the content takes to execute effectively (e.g., many savage raiders have likely spent at least 10 hours progging a 10-minute fight, giving it a ratio of 60:1, whereas a dungeon boss that you kill on the first try has a ratio of 1:1). I'd love to see more lower-intensity, longer-form content in this game, but they just aren't making it.

Help me see where I am going wrong. If we are using total time investment as a metric for hardcore, then are we saying relics (outside of EW) are considered hardcore? Because I'm pretty sure some of them took longer than 10 hours to do, and I don't think I've seen anyone say relics are hardcore content.

I think the flaw with your numbers (which I'm hoping you'll clarify) is that it seems to think that every pull is going 10 minutes, and that is not the case, especially early in prog on a specific fight.

[Mawlzy]

Help me see where I am going wrong. If we are using total time investment as a metric for hardcore, then are we saying relics (outside of EW) are considered hardcore? Because I'm pretty sure some of them took longer than 10 hours to do, and I don't think I've seen anyone say relics are hardcore content.

I think the flaw with your numbers (which I'm hoping you'll clarify) is that it seems to think that every pull is going 10 minutes, and that is not the case, especially early in prog on a specific fight.

I don't think it is total time commitment. Plenty of omnicrafters and gil accumulators dedicate massive amounts of total time.

The issue with high-end raiding (and to me what actually defines a hardcore player), is the requirement of blocking out significant chunks of time that coordinate with other players. Once someone graduates college, that gets increasingly difficult.

[Menriq]

I don't think it is total time commitment. Plenty of omnicrafters and gil accumulators dedicate massive amounts of total time.

That's why I quoted them, which literally had "high ratio of total time investment".

The issue with high-end raiding (and to me what actually defines a hardcore player), is the requirement of blocking out significant chunks of time that coordinate with other players. Once someone graduates college, that gets increasingly difficult.

YMMV on scheduling significant chunks of time. Swap out scheduling time for raid with a weekly golf outing, darts league, etc. and I don't think someone would be considered "hardcore" in that activity, so time really shouldn't be a metric for something to be considered "hardcore" IMO.

[Mawlzy]

That's why I quoted them, which literally had "high ratio of total time investment".


YMMV on scheduling significant chunks of time. Swap out scheduling time for raid with a weekly golf outing, darts league, etc. and I don't think someone would be considered "hardcore" in that activity, so time really shouldn't be a metric for something to be considered "hardcore" IMO.

Completely fair. Individual circumstances will dominate this element. But for most people it does tend to get more difficult as work and family commitments increase.

[TemporalFruitsAndVeggies]

Help me see where I am going wrong. If we are using total time investment as a metric for hardcore, then are we saying relics (outside of EW) are considered hardcore? Because I'm pretty sure some of them took longer than 10 hours to do, and I don't think I've seen anyone say relics are hardcore content.

I think the flaw with your numbers (which I'm hoping you'll clarify) is that it seems to think that every pull is going 10 minutes, and that is not the case, especially early in prog on a specific fight.

Yeah, maybe I didn't explain well. The ratio is of total time investment to the total time the content takes to execute properly. For example, a properly executed Savage boss kill generally takes ten minutes, but it can take ten or more hours of practice to get to the point where you have that proper ten-minute execution. The ratio is even more extreme for Ultimates.

Getting a relic weapon, on the other hand, is not really a matter of execution; it is, by design, something that takes weeks or months of grinding easy content. You never struggle to complete that content; you just need to do it over and over and over. Its ratio of total time investment to total time it takes to "execute properly" is 1:1.

Also remember that the ratio is not indicative of total hours spent, and that "casual" vs. "hardcore" gamer is not the same as "casual" vs. "hardcore" content. Lots of people play this game eight or more hours a day; they are, objectively, hardcore gamers, playing FFXIV as if it's a job. But they may never once touch hardcore content.