Maybe it's time for a casual "strike" if not complete departure.

[TemporalFruitsAndVeggies]

Raid content and hardcore content are not the same thing.
The only "hardcore" content listed here were the ultimates. Savage has been midcore for a while, and the rest is self-explanatory.

I'm so tired of seeing this take. Progression raiding is a hardcore MMORPG activity, full stop, because it has a very high ratio of total time investment vs. time the content takes to execute effectively (e.g., many savage raiders have likely spent at least 10 hours progging a 10-minute fight, giving it a ratio of 60:1, whereas a dungeon boss that you kill on the first try has a ratio of 1:1). "Midcore content" is a term I hear pretty much exclusively from FFXIV players (try googling "midcore content" in quotes and note that virtually every single result is from an FFXIV forum or subreddit) who:

1. Want to keep playing FFXIV
2. Don't want to raid
3. Don't like the game's casual content

The objective conclusion to draw at the moment is "this game isn't for you, unfortunately." That's a crap conclusion to draw, and I wish it weren't the case, because I'd love to see more lower-intensity, longer-form content in this game, but they just aren't making it.

People use the high clear rates of Savage to argue that Savage is midcore content, but I'd argue they're drawing the wrong conclusion. I would argue that that data indicates that the game's player base is trending more and more hardcore, since that's who the non-story content has obviously been catering to for several years now. Is it really a big surprise that, if all you put out as end-game content is progression raiding content, your player base will trend towards progression raiders?

[Capstone]

I'm so tired of seeing this take. Progression raiding is a hardcore MMORPG activity, full stop, because it has a very high ratio of total time investment vs. time the content takes to execute effectively (e.g., many savage raiders have likely spent at least 10 hours progging a 10-minute fight, giving it a ratio of 60:1, whereas a dungeon boss that you kill on the first try has a ratio of 1:1). "Midcore content" is a term I hear pretty much exclusively from FFXIV players (try googling "midcore content" in quotes and note that virtually every single result is from an FFXIV forum or subreddit) who:

1. Want to keep playing FFXIV
2. Don't want to raid
3. Don't like the game's casual content

The objective conclusion to draw at the moment is "this game isn't for you, unfortunately." That's a crap conclusion to draw, and I wish it weren't the case, because I'd love to see more lower-intensity, longer-form content in this game, but they just aren't making it.

People use the high clear rates of Savage to argue that Savage is midcore content, but I'd argue they're drawing the wrong conclusion. I would argue that that data indicates that the game's player base is trending more and more hardcore, since that's who the non-story content has obviously been catering to for several years now. Is it really a big surprise that, if all you put out as end-game content is progression raiding content, your player base will trend towards progression raiders?

Or (you may argue "also," but I don't), it indicates that the content is getting easier. The last savage tier absolutely fell over. Our group allocated a bunch of PTO for it, blew it over, and ended up just having vacation instead. A midcore raid-for-fun friend group I know and love well cleared it on-patch when their stated goal was to have fun and maybe clear on-content; on-patch was not even a discussion. The content has shifted, quite clearly--something like the dps check of Abysos is just not a thing anymore.

[CaedemSanguis]

Raid content and hardcore content are not the same thing.
The only "hardcore" content listed here were the ultimates. Savage has been midcore for a while, and the rest is self-explanatory.

yeah but HC raider usually enjoy doing everything above/equal ex or savage difficulty

[Voidmage]

Or (you may argue "also," but I don't), it indicates that the content is getting easier. The last savage tier absolutely fell over. Our group allocated a bunch of PTO for it, blew it over, and ended up just having vacation instead. A midcore raid-for-fun friend group I know and love well cleared it on-patch when their stated goal was to have fun and maybe clear on-content; on-patch was not even a discussion. The content has shifted, quite clearly--something like the dps check of Abysos is just not a thing anymore.

Just because one savage tier was easier doesn't turn savage itself into midcore suddenly.
If the next one is also easy, sure we can talk but till then nothing in this games history suggests savage get's easier and easier.

[TemporalFruitsAndVeggies]

Or (you may argue "also," but I don't), it indicates that the content is getting easier. The last savage tier absolutely fell over. Our group allocated a bunch of PTO for it, blew it over, and ended up just having vacation instead. A midcore raid-for-fun friend group I know and love well cleared it on-patch when their stated goal was to have fun and maybe clear on-content; on-patch was not even a discussion. The content has shifted, quite clearly--something like the dps check of Abysos is just not a thing anymore.

That doesn't make it not hardcore. That just makes it easier than expected. I can tell you for certain that lots of groups did not breeze through it. Your group is clearly far more serious than the average group. I mean, you literally said you all took off work for it. There's nothing more "hardcore gamer" than that (though that's admittedly a different usage of the term).

[Menriq]

I'm so tired of seeing this take. Progression raiding is a hardcore MMORPG activity, full stop, because it has a very high ratio of total time investment vs. time the content takes to execute effectively (e.g., many savage raiders have likely spent at least 10 hours progging a 10-minute fight, giving it a ratio of 60:1, whereas a dungeon boss that you kill on the first try has a ratio of 1:1). I'd love to see more lower-intensity, longer-form content in this game, but they just aren't making it.

Help me see where I am going wrong. If we are using total time investment as a metric for hardcore, then are we saying relics (outside of EW) are considered hardcore? Because I'm pretty sure some of them took longer than 10 hours to do, and I don't think I've seen anyone say relics are hardcore content.

I think the flaw with your numbers (which I'm hoping you'll clarify) is that it seems to think that every pull is going 10 minutes, and that is not the case, especially early in prog on a specific fight.

[Mawlzy]

Help me see where I am going wrong. If we are using total time investment as a metric for hardcore, then are we saying relics (outside of EW) are considered hardcore? Because I'm pretty sure some of them took longer than 10 hours to do, and I don't think I've seen anyone say relics are hardcore content.

I think the flaw with your numbers (which I'm hoping you'll clarify) is that it seems to think that every pull is going 10 minutes, and that is not the case, especially early in prog on a specific fight.

I don't think it is total time commitment. Plenty of omnicrafters and gil accumulators dedicate massive amounts of total time.

The issue with high-end raiding (and to me what actually defines a hardcore player), is the requirement of blocking out significant chunks of time that coordinate with other players. Once someone graduates college, that gets increasingly difficult.

[Menriq]

I don't think it is total time commitment. Plenty of omnicrafters and gil accumulators dedicate massive amounts of total time.

That's why I quoted them, which literally had "high ratio of total time investment".

The issue with high-end raiding (and to me what actually defines a hardcore player), is the requirement of blocking out significant chunks of time that coordinate with other players. Once someone graduates college, that gets increasingly difficult.

YMMV on scheduling significant chunks of time. Swap out scheduling time for raid with a weekly golf outing, darts league, etc. and I don't think someone would be considered "hardcore" in that activity, so time really shouldn't be a metric for something to be considered "hardcore" IMO.

[Mawlzy]

That's why I quoted them, which literally had "high ratio of total time investment".


YMMV on scheduling significant chunks of time. Swap out scheduling time for raid with a weekly golf outing, darts league, etc. and I don't think someone would be considered "hardcore" in that activity, so time really shouldn't be a metric for something to be considered "hardcore" IMO.

Completely fair. Individual circumstances will dominate this element. But for most people it does tend to get more difficult as work and family commitments increase.

[Capstone]

Just because one savage tier was easier doesn't turn savage itself into midcore suddenly.
If the next one is also easy, sure we can talk but till then nothing in this games history suggests savage get's easier and easier.

So, I don't think this criticism is unfair. I personally thought that anabaseios was also quite easy, though I didn't take it as seriously since there was no ulti unlock/bis tied to it. So that would be two tiers, in my opinion. Bonds 3 might have been the hardest thing in the while tier and all you had to do was look and move on time.

Abysos I think qualifies as hard enough (again these are opinions though) but also a lot of that came from the check requiring you to be not making not just mechanical but also rotational mistakes or you wouldn't clear, but the dev team is on record as saying that was too hard and further they nerfed it immediately which I don't think they've ever done before. If you start looking older than that, it was years ago (and I can't really comment because we quickly get to where I didn't play). The point though is that of the last three tiers, each new one has been easier, which I do see as a downward trend.