Bring Back Kaiten

[RyuuZero]

Just stop the copium kaiten will never come back.

No? Since the Kaiten Playstyle was Last Time This Game had Fun Gameplay^^
Or do you wanna defend how Viper plays instead?

[AvoSturmfaust]

No? Since the Kaiten Playstyle was Last Time This Game had Fun Gameplay^^
Or do you wanna defend how Viper plays instead?

It was for YOU maybe the last time it was fun, but overall does the current samu feels incredible with the recent changes to tsubame, and thats something the majority thinks of, kaiten will never come back so just accept ist, and no i dont defend viper which is my main on my RAID TWINK

[Shurrikhan]

Can you clarify how it increases player agency to have an ability that is only used to buff the potency of iaijutsu and something that must be used for every single iaijutsu?

In itself, it doesn't enhance "agency", no. The better way to look at it is that it accentuates skill expression among other, surrounding parts of the kit, helping to tie the Kenki gauge together (alongside the old varied Kenki costs, likewise removed).

since a Kaiten Buffed Enpi is still stronger than a Normal Enpi!

No, unless the difference would finish off an enemy that could not otherwise be finished off without greater waste of relative potency, a Kaiten-Enpi is weaker than a normal Enpi in any sense that matters, for the simple fact that the Kaiten's worth of resource could have been better spent on any normal action (Gyofu for uptime, Kaiten-Iaijutsu, Shinten if overflow, etc.).

if there is no player agency.. where is the Gameplay then? If there is no Player Agency.. why even play the game? why not just write scripts and macros to enable auto-play? You seem against entire aspects of fun, if you ask me.

Hikari's being pretty reasonable here, actually. "Agency" is simply a misnomer for what you're describing; one can understand that you instead mean the closest thing to 'agency" that we may have, but... in XIV, you're playing sheet music and being graded by how precisely close to what is written you can get, not by any potential "value added" or what "new spin" may be possible. If teamplay were more integral, that could better provide a space for seemingly different types of knowledge or instinct rewarded, and if our rotations were less fixed with obvious best answers more would seem to fall to nuance and branching gambles that could potentially be called "agency", but this XIV. Teamwork in this game has increasingly come down to playing in adjacent recording rooms, careful only to follow the same BPM rather than to truly adapt to anyone else.

And while some anchors (fixed, obvious things, like Kaiten before Iaijutsu) accentuate the skill expression surrounding them and could, in the right context, even see some use reminiscent of "ingenuity" while helping to give a job's playflow its easily recognizable flavor, having too much that is covered by those anchors or otherwise inflexibly pinned down can work to collectively stymie any room for what we might call "agency".

For that reason, to my mind, when considering something like Kaiten, just as with Power Surge before it (the last skill to have been given the same warrant for removal, despite wildly different contexts), it's worth considering not just whether it should be kept or removed, but what it could have been to provide as much benefit as possible. Kaiten was pretty flawed, but worked well at least to accentuate the gauge contexts of Shadowbringers and Stormblood. Ideally, though, I would have liked to see it form something a bit less... rote, so to speak. /shrug

[RyuuZero]

Kaiten before Iaijutsu was the Main Use but the Application was that it boosted all Weaponskills and Enpi with 50% more Damage (due to Kaiten) is stronger than a Normal Enpi unless the Buffed Enpi doesn't crit but the normal one does.

But in the current Day of the Samurai Gameplay Kenki really feels useless and Tsubamegaeshi should be the 52 Skill, that would be fun.

Yet if Kenki should remain: Kaiten needs to come back

[Shurrikhan]

Kaiten before Iaijutsu was the Main Use but the Application was that it boosted all Weaponskills and Enpi with 50% more Damage (due to Kaiten) is stronger than a Normal Enpi unless the Buffed Enpi doesn't crit but the normal one does.

But in the current Day of the Samurai Gameplay Kenki really feels useless and Tsubamegaeshi should be the 52 Skill, that would be fun.

Yet if Kenki should remain: Kaiten needs to come back

Only the net value of actions are relevant. The net value of using Kaiten on Enpi is less than using Kaiten on any of its usual means of expenditure (Higan, Midare, etc.) while instead using Enpi normally.

It is therefore, "in any sense that matters", weaker than normal Enpi and always a weaker choice (as decisions are the emphasis in evaluating any increased breath of player "agency") than normal Enpi.

[RyuuZero]

Yupp but seriously the Uselessness of Kenki needs to be pointed out, glaringly.
Since It's what Kaiten addressed:
At lvl 50 The Samurai learned to master Iaijutsu
At lvl 52 The Samurai learned Kaiten to utilize Kenki in order to boost all Weaponskills

Kenki was supposed to enhance the lvl50 Rotation with a Resource to make the Big Attacks hit bigger thanks to Resource Management that Kaiten provided.

What's the Resource Management of Shinten? "Oh.. I have 25 Kenki, Press Shinten for an OCD.. wuuhuu", not as deep as to have an Energy Gauge to make your Big Hitter hit bigger.

which is why if Kaiten doesn't come back they should at least scrap Kenki, but Tsubamegaeshi to lvl52 and go back to sleep.. or what they done to Summoner.. idk

[Orteus]

Just adding my voice to this - bring back Kaiten.

[Carighan]

Kaiten, like so many oGCD spenders or weaves, was just silly.

It commits the same cardinal crime a lot of design in FFXIV does, confusing complexity of gameplay with depth of gameplay. Somehow we (the playerbase) have all accepted that just having a lot of buttons to weave/mash somehow is indicative of skill, despite that quite literally being the gameplay of Mario&Sonic Olympics 100m dash or WiiSports or so.

[Mimilu]

Kaiten, like so many oGCD spenders or weaves, was just silly.

It commits the same cardinal crime a lot of design in FFXIV does, confusing complexity of gameplay with depth of gameplay. Somehow we (the playerbase) have all accepted that just having a lot of buttons to weave/mash somehow is indicative of skill, despite that quite literally being the gameplay of Mario&Sonic Olympics 100m dash or WiiSports or so.

But WiiSports is fun. (´･ᴗ･`) ~♥

[Tint]

Kaiten before Iaijutsu was the Main Use but the Application was that it boosted all Weaponskills and Enpi with 50% more Damage (due to Kaiten) is stronger than a Normal Enpi unless the Buffed Enpi doesn't crit but the normal one does.

And that's why it will never come back: The devs don't want to balance it. There are too many variables going on. Buff the potency of a GCD skill and suddenly Shinten becomes useless.