Maybe it's time for a casual "strike" if not complete departure.

[CidHeiral]

It's hardly imaginary, given that this sort of divide has apparently been around long before I started playing, it was just very good about hiding because I waltzed into this game thinking it WASN'T going to be same song and dance as every other MMO I've played, especially when people openly spoke of its community like it was a FEATURE that it was "totally different" from the rest. And that tiny box wasn't entirely of my own making between being on a dead data center, and then being forced play with other people on other data centers where it was a coin flip if they could tolerate my presence (and would vocalize if they didn't, ToS be damned) which has helped to create this impression that even if I DID overcome said insecurities and fear of failure, the hardcore community at large doesn't seem worth engaging with because so much of it is hostile on the forums, on Reddit, on Twitter, in Discords, and even IN-GAME and the only thing Chaotic did was let them go off completely about "what they really think" now that they've gotten it into their heads that they're the company & developers favorites and can stop maintaining the previous illusion (assuming they were even the ones doing it, they don't really strike me as the kind of people that could even pretend to be nice).

This screams "all my exes are crazy." Clearly there's more to your bad experiences with every other MMO and half your groups that you're leaving out, but I digress.

I believe anyone can accomplish anything they want in this game if they honestly try and I believe that includes you as well, but if you'd rather self sabotage and blame all the evil raiders just to feel better about yourself then you only have yourself to blame for where you're at. If you don't want to step outside your box there's nothing wrong with that, you can play the game however you please, but the only person keeping you in that box is you.

[Gurgeh]

This screams "all my exes are crazy." Clearly there's more to your bad experiences with every other MMO and half your groups that you're leaving out, but I digress.

I believe anyone can accomplish anything they want in this game if they honestly try ...

tirggered.... AM TRIGGERED!
Its a game. I don't get how people get any sense of 'accomplishment' out of any of it? And I know I won't be alone. But that doesn't mean I can't easily accept that many do get a sense of 'accomplishment'

Its like this....

I can tell from my extreme progs, and most of the farms that I'm in, and a whole day's worth of Chaotic, that a LOT of people are not having any fun at all, they are miserable, they are suffering, from the moment of the first pull, they just want to get out of their as fast as possible. They don't even want to say hi...
So why are they there? It is clearly the 'sense of accomplishment' from clearing, or getting the mount or whatever. (they are not even going to use the mount much, and they must know its not much of a flex compared to savage or ultimate.)

Personally for me the first 'clear' as always a massive anticlimax for me. I don't know why, but I at least now know to expect it. I love prog, and then when I clear its like "well it was fun while it lasted".


People are made differently.
But what that means is that while a lot of people are unbalanced enough to find the misery and suffering of being under the yoke of their static raid leader to never miss raid night, or endure the antisocial soul crushing experience of farm and prog abandons, is nonetheless outweighed by the need to 'accomplish' that clear or ount, that kind of 'enabling' dysfunction isn't a curse/gift that everyone posses.

As such while they 'can', at the same time they 'can't' because they don't posses the same fckd up reward pathways that enable the hardcore loons to throw themselves at that brickwall day after day.
To each their own and I realise that my language is provocative (and unfair) but I'm being forced to overload my point to try and get it through.
Some people are 'very' predisposed to gambling, or alcohol addiction. No one say's "anyone can achieve sclerosis of the liver if they try" or "anyone can throw a mortgage away if they try"
We don't want to do hardcore because static obligations "AREN'T FUN". We don't want to endure PF culture because its "NOT FUN"
We just want decent 'playable battle' content, like we used to have, but actually don't anymore. Something with a 'casual' reward, like the gearing of normals or alliance. Casuals are not interested in low drop rates, or 100 clears, if we might along the way have to put up with typical PF farming culture.
If you can get Extremes and Criterion to fill in DF, so that we don't have to put up with peoples added T&Cs, or have to sit around filling for 40minutes only for it to disband, we might start doing it.
Here is an idea, remove the 'completed' plag from PF. Force people if they want to filter for completed players to use the DF/RaidFinder. Too bad you will have to communicate your strategy in their. Too bad you'll have to spend longer learning more strats before you can start arming. These are all things the devs can easily compensate for, if high end are "hardworking" and "willing" as they claim. But while we don't want to join PFs they probably don't 'enjoy' doing anythin unless its the MIN/MAX optimised strategy. They don't enjoy helping, they don't enjoy compromising, they are not there for the social, they are there for thier mount and thats it. 'People are profoundly different'

[Clockworks]

.

So you agree with what CidHeiral said, anyone can do it if they want to, and if they dont want to then so be it.

You really didnt need to write all that just to confirm what they said. If you wanted to show them wrong, that failed.

[Gurgeh]

So you agree with what CidHeiral said, anyone can do it if they want to, and if they dont want to then so be it.

You really didnt need to write all that just to confirm what they said. If you wanted to show them wrong, that failed.

No because the argument, the implication, is always that "this content is good enough for me so it IS good enough for you too." The impression is always "if you just tried it you will find you like it like I do. It is the 'minor' matter of 'attitide' that is you blocking you. So now we've concluded that you are being pathetic by not making use of hardcore, we can move on to ignore your requests"

You know, I don't think I've ever seen a casual argue, "delete extreme, delete savage, delete ultimate. We enjoy just chilling with our friends. You'll find you can too if you just learn to climb down if your fanaticism and need to polish your ego with flexs" , because we GET that what works for casuals, had nothing to offer high end.
But what your not getting is that we feel we've got nothing. The current casual content is 'bad' in a way that the high end isn't. Its not offering what casual should. But always the refrain from high end is "well, do hardcore instead"
Your not getting it. (Or your are and your trolling) but many aren't.

[Clockworks]

No because the argument, the implication, is always that "this content is good enough for me so it IS good enough for you too." The impression is always "if you just tried it you will find you like it like I do. It is the 'minor' matter of 'attitide' that is you blocking you. So now we've concluded that you are being pathetic by not making use of hardcore, we can move on to ignore your requests"

You know, I don't think I've ever seen a casual argue, "delete extreme, delete savage, delete ultimate. We enjoy just chilling with our friends. You'll find you can too if you just learn to climb down if your fanaticism and need to polish your ego with flexs" , because we GET that what works for casuals, had nothing to offer high end.
But what your not getting is that we feel we've got nothing. The current casual content is 'bad' in a way that the high end isn't. Its not offering what casual should. But always the refrain from high end is "well, do hardcore instead"
Your not getting it. (Or your are and your trolling) but many aren't.

I actually agree that casuals have got nothing, but that's because this community is as silent as can be, on every kind of issue actually, the community is the problem.

Congestion issues that dont exist (Proven by player numbers) ? A 20 pages thread, nothing else, yet people are barred from visiting aether at any time of the day that isnt 2 AM basically, yet the game is in pretty heavy decline, so one can wonder where is this so called congestion, but I guess it helps them to pretend that the game is "booming with players" since some people fall for it, just like the log in queues, most people think it's because the server is actually full, while the reality is that it logs people in batches to not "overload" (lol) the servers.

Mediocre graphical update ? Same thing, people eventually got silent and moved on, yet we have areas like the sea of clouds that are still to this day ruined by a heavy thick fog that makes the sunset the ugliest thing ever.

Character model issues ? People eventually got quiet over those too after a tiny bit of time, and now it's pretty much been forgotten.

Housing issues ? A housing forum that is barely used if at all with one post every few days, yet we are still limited at 30 wards per area per server for... reasons, oh wait, that's because they dont want to fix it since they are racking in the sub money by making people scared if they dare come back one day they'll have to bid for 5 years before maybe getting a large.

This is the same thing with every single issue in this game, people are silent, barely anyone says anything, and even if you dare say something, you get hit by what I call the FFXIV defense squad, "YES WOW IS WORSE !!!" "JUST GO PLAY WOW !!" "TALK FOR YOURSELF I LOVE X, THE MAJORITY DOES !!"

This community will be this game's downfall, and it will only be able to blame itself for letting it happen.

[JimCasey_RF6]

This community will be this game's downfall, and it will only be able to blame itself for letting it happen.

Our playerbase is far too full of themselves to be blamed for anything.

[Mawlzy]

I actually agree that casuals have got nothing, but that's because this community is as silent as can be, on every kind of issue actually, the community is the problem.

I wouldn't call it silent, exactly. It may lack tenacity, but I'd suggest that's because feedback doesn't seem to do anything.

We had a massive thread on everything that was wrong with Frontline prior to 7.1. Obviously a lot of noise, but also many sensible suggestions to make the mode more enjoyable. When the full patch notes came out, we found we'd been ignored, and given sweeping changes that nobody had asked for (that don't even accomplish what the devs claim they do).

This is probably why we end up arguing with each other.

[Clockworks]

I wouldn't call it silent, exactly. It may lack tenacity, but I'd suggest that's because feedback doesn't seem to do anything.

We had a massive thread on everything that was wrong with Frontline prior to 7.1. Obviously a lot of noise, but also many sensible suggestions to make the mode more enjoyable. When the full patch notes came out, we found we'd been ignored, and given sweeping changes that nobody had asked for (that don't even accomplish what the devs claim they do).

This is probably why we end up arguing with each other.

I do think that is true actually yeah, and that is also a massive problem, the community is just full of yes men regarding what SE does, SE as a whole genuinely never gets held accountable for anything FFXIV because the community would rather fight itself from within, added to the fact that they dont listen at all (because truly, they dont have to because of what I just mentioned) it's bound to eventually fail.

[IceEyes]

When the full patch notes came out, we found we'd been ignored, and given sweeping changes that nobody had asked for

That's calling "excel table moment", when from devs words: "we have a full image of situation, what justified on statistics X".

Based on their statistics and databases, they make decisions. You can even read their patch notes, which usually say...
"This job doesn't do a good enough and have a low win rate, so we're buffing it".

It feels like you're reading a patch for a MOBA.

The developer, in principle, rarely listens to the opinions of the players (with rare exceptions).

This can apply to the development of any content, not just PvP, and not only in FF14.

They see that hardcore content is in demand among hardcore raiders and continue to release it regularly. At the same time, they failed the most basic casual content (MSQ), but it has already been released, it cannot be “fixed” in a short time.

If for some reason a society is quiet or does not create enough noise, then everything suits it. In our situation, most hardcore raiders are happy with everything.

[Gurgeh]

....

Well your discussing something different. Nearly all of which I basically agree with, except it being the community's fault.

XIVs humans aren't genetically superior. Nor are their cultural upbringing and norms. XIVs strengths used to be that they did things to reward and encourage positive behaviour, and they created a melting pot. 'Lalas' to filter people with fragile masculine egos. Not so much horrific FOMO and more drop rates that creates 'perform or GTFO!' toxicity. 'Some' homogenising of jobs and low barriers to job switching, that avoids creating "your face/job' isn't welcome, leave" toxicity.
A whole wealth of different personality types to mix together to braoden people's outlooks, and prevent any one mindset becoming 'too' domineering.

It was the game that takes credit. (People are people)
It's about good leadership.
Creative III used to provide great leadership, but it no longer does.
And CHAOTIC, and it's tone deafness, is perhaps the ultimate example of where that leadership had been poor. It's driven a huge wedge into the community.

It is not the communities fault. People are people.
It's time for Creative III to muster up good leadership, and restart some 'virtuous circles'.