Maybe it's time for a casual "strike" if not complete departure.

[CidHeiral]

There's also the matter that most hardcore players don't WANT casuals "getting good" at the content at all, there isn't some major outreach and up-lifting program going on here, quite the opposite actually as we literally just saw with Chaotic.

But it's still really telling that these are exceptions and not the norm, or how in my case at least, it's not "WAHH I'M TOO LAZY, MAIL ME THE REWARDS" like someone like Volgia no doubt thinks of all casual players, but rather it's "I really don't think I'm good enough for this or can be, and there's not much to prove otherwise" when there's been hardcore players coming in here and similar topics who see someone struggling and their first response is "fuck off and leave then, more for me" as if Final Fantasy 14 was some kind of pie they're scared of not getting a slice of, despite already getting the lion's share this expansion.

Still get spat in the face for my consideration though, still get accused of being "entitled" too. In that regards, it creates this sentiment that I and others wouldn't want to play with most hardcore players either because frankly, most of them are complete assholes and proudly flaunt that fact.

Painting an entire group of people with the same brush based on a few forum trolls isn't any different than what you're accusing them of doing to casual players. Your last several posts in this thread have been extreme exaggerations or total fabrications and you've ignored posts pointing out where you haven't been truthful. You're creating an imaginary hardcore player boogeyman as an excuse to not venture outside of the tiny box you've put yourself in so you feel better about your self-admitted insecurities and fear of failure. If you worked on yourself instead of blaming everyone else for your woes you'd probably have a much more enjoyable time with the game.

[Lilapop]

Painting an entire group of people with the same brush based on a few forum trolls isn't any different than what you're accusing them of doing to casual players. Your last several posts in this thread have been extreme exaggerations or total fabrications and you've ignored posts pointing out where you haven't been truthful. You're creating an imaginary hardcore player boogeyman as an excuse to not venture outside of the tiny box you've put yourself in so you feel better about your self-admitted insecurities and fear of failure. If you worked on yourself instead of blaming everyone else for your woes you'd probably have a much more enjoyable time with the game.

It isn't just "a few forum trolls" telling people to get good or get lost, though.

[AntoniusQuil]

It's hardly imaginary, given that this sort of divide has apparently been around long before I started playing, it was just very good about hiding because I waltzed into this game thinking it WASN'T going to be same song and dance as every other MMO I've played, especially when people openly spoke of its community like it was a FEATURE that it was "totally different" from the rest. And that tiny box wasn't entirely of my own making between being on a dead data center, and then being forced play with other people on other data centers where it was a coin flip if they could tolerate my presence (and would vocalize if they didn't, ToS be damned) which has helped to create this impression that even if I DID overcome said insecurities and fear of failure, the hardcore community at large doesn't seem worth engaging with because so much of it is hostile on the forums, on Reddit, on Twitter, in Discords, and even IN-GAME and the only thing Chaotic did was let them go off completely about "what they really think" now that they've gotten it into their heads that they're the company & developers favorites and can stop maintaining the previous illusion (assuming they were even the ones doing it, they don't really strike me as the kind of people that could even pretend to be nice).

It's only significant enough now to make me speak up because there's other people that were more actively speaking about the casual and hardcore divide as well, thanks to Chaotic, which says a bloody damn lot that I couldn't even be comfortable airing any grievances with this severity and verbosity until I thought I wasn't alone yet again. Same as when I spoke of PVP changes, of data center issues, and nearly every other thing I've ever criticized about the game on the forums. Speaking up by yourself is a good way to get shut down, especially by those who don't think you belong to begin with.

And no, before someone tries to go on that track, I'm not trying to equate any of this to "discrimination" or anything like that. It's a video game, it's not that serious, but as a paying customer I will bloody ask where the money is going if we're all collectively getting hosed over here, as even hardcore players were ultimately denied a true raid but STILL feel the need to act this way like that's somehow my fault for breathing the same in-game oxygen as them. (Who is making up boogeymen again?)

Personally I feel like in spite of what people say about FFXIV community, the Hardcore vs Casual players divide is actually the worst and most toxic in FFXIV out of all the current big mainstream mmos. While it usually stays silent in game due to quite good chat moderation, in other online spaces it’s really visible.

[Mawlzy]

Personally I feel like in spite of what people say about FFXIV community, the Hardcore vs Casual players divide is actually the worst and most toxic in FFXIV out of all the current big mainstream mmos. While it usually stays silent in game due to quite good chat moderation, in other online spaces it’s really visible.

Absolutely this. It's astounding on YouTube. Scroll through the comments on guides for dungeons/trials/raids/solo duties. Littered with comments about how the content is "brain-dead" easy and doesn't require a guide, flaming the content creator, along with insults towards anyone who needs such content. Like people are actually going out of their way to find videos they don't need so they can flex and insult others.

The only game where I've seen similar levels of hostility is EVE.

[CidHeiral]

It's hardly imaginary, given that this sort of divide has apparently been around long before I started playing, it was just very good about hiding because I waltzed into this game thinking it WASN'T going to be same song and dance as every other MMO I've played, especially when people openly spoke of its community like it was a FEATURE that it was "totally different" from the rest. And that tiny box wasn't entirely of my own making between being on a dead data center, and then being forced play with other people on other data centers where it was a coin flip if they could tolerate my presence (and would vocalize if they didn't, ToS be damned) which has helped to create this impression that even if I DID overcome said insecurities and fear of failure, the hardcore community at large doesn't seem worth engaging with because so much of it is hostile on the forums, on Reddit, on Twitter, in Discords, and even IN-GAME and the only thing Chaotic did was let them go off completely about "what they really think" now that they've gotten it into their heads that they're the company & developers favorites and can stop maintaining the previous illusion (assuming they were even the ones doing it, they don't really strike me as the kind of people that could even pretend to be nice).

This screams "all my exes are crazy." Clearly there's more to your bad experiences with every other MMO and half your groups that you're leaving out, but I digress.

I believe anyone can accomplish anything they want in this game if they honestly try and I believe that includes you as well, but if you'd rather self sabotage and blame all the evil raiders just to feel better about yourself then you only have yourself to blame for where you're at. If you don't want to step outside your box there's nothing wrong with that, you can play the game however you please, but the only person keeping you in that box is you.

[Gurgeh]

This screams "all my exes are crazy." Clearly there's more to your bad experiences with every other MMO and half your groups that you're leaving out, but I digress.

I believe anyone can accomplish anything they want in this game if they honestly try ...

tirggered.... AM TRIGGERED!
Its a game. I don't get how people get any sense of 'accomplishment' out of any of it? And I know I won't be alone. But that doesn't mean I can't easily accept that many do get a sense of 'accomplishment'

Its like this....

I can tell from my extreme progs, and most of the farms that I'm in, and a whole day's worth of Chaotic, that a LOT of people are not having any fun at all, they are miserable, they are suffering, from the moment of the first pull, they just want to get out of their as fast as possible. They don't even want to say hi...
So why are they there? It is clearly the 'sense of accomplishment' from clearing, or getting the mount or whatever. (they are not even going to use the mount much, and they must know its not much of a flex compared to savage or ultimate.)

Personally for me the first 'clear' as always a massive anticlimax for me. I don't know why, but I at least now know to expect it. I love prog, and then when I clear its like "well it was fun while it lasted".


People are made differently.
But what that means is that while a lot of people are unbalanced enough to find the misery and suffering of being under the yoke of their static raid leader to never miss raid night, or endure the antisocial soul crushing experience of farm and prog abandons, is nonetheless outweighed by the need to 'accomplish' that clear or ount, that kind of 'enabling' dysfunction isn't a curse/gift that everyone posses.

As such while they 'can', at the same time they 'can't' because they don't posses the same fckd up reward pathways that enable the hardcore loons to throw themselves at that brickwall day after day.
To each their own and I realise that my language is provocative (and unfair) but I'm being forced to overload my point to try and get it through.
Some people are 'very' predisposed to gambling, or alcohol addiction. No one say's "anyone can achieve sclerosis of the liver if they try" or "anyone can throw a mortgage away if they try"
We don't want to do hardcore because static obligations "AREN'T FUN". We don't want to endure PF culture because its "NOT FUN"
We just want decent 'playable battle' content, like we used to have, but actually don't anymore. Something with a 'casual' reward, like the gearing of normals or alliance. Casuals are not interested in low drop rates, or 100 clears, if we might along the way have to put up with typical PF farming culture.
If you can get Extremes and Criterion to fill in DF, so that we don't have to put up with peoples added T&Cs, or have to sit around filling for 40minutes only for it to disband, we might start doing it.
Here is an idea, remove the 'completed' plag from PF. Force people if they want to filter for completed players to use the DF/RaidFinder. Too bad you will have to communicate your strategy in their. Too bad you'll have to spend longer learning more strats before you can start arming. These are all things the devs can easily compensate for, if high end are "hardworking" and "willing" as they claim. But while we don't want to join PFs they probably don't 'enjoy' doing anythin unless its the MIN/MAX optimised strategy. They don't enjoy helping, they don't enjoy compromising, they are not there for the social, they are there for thier mount and thats it. 'People are profoundly different'

[Clockworks]

.

So you agree with what CidHeiral said, anyone can do it if they want to, and if they dont want to then so be it.

You really didnt need to write all that just to confirm what they said. If you wanted to show them wrong, that failed.