We are missing Content between Normal and Extreme. Wrong Audience for Chaotic

[Hanayumi]

Just got into Chaotic over weekend after holiday time with fam so haven't cleared, but would say a majority of this fight is about EX level difficult, but overall gets pushed into savage level by a couple mechanics... Its just fairly unforgiving to recover in, deaths snowball pretty fast especially in 2nd phase. Think if they got rid of just 1 thing id be perfect, the swap mechanic, so far its been the biggest run ruiner ive seen if folks are dead often resulting in misplaced folks and snowballing from there...

[Menriq]

I am not talking about a raid with 7 different versions but about different content in difficulty for different player levels.

Chaotic was an experiment. I'm sure they'll take feedback. If there is a next time, we'll see if there is an easier version or not.

That is getting repeated but doesn't imply anything imo.
Was the overall ilvl on the level of bis gear so the dps check was higher? Was it a usuall PF group? When did those deaths occur (phase 1 or 2?)

Let's be honest. If someone told you, with no context, that a piece of content was cleared with over 20 deaths and 71 damage downs, would your first thought be that it's an encounter that could be considered only for hardcore raiders?

Content where not everyone has to play perfect in fear of wiping everyone but absolutely above the normal raid content.

This sounds like EX. However, there are people saying that even this is too much commitment since it requires looking at guides.

[Voidmage]

Let's be honest. If someone told you, with no context, that a piece of content was cleared with over 20 deaths and 71 damage downs, would your first thought be that it's an encounter that could be considered only for hardcore raiders?

I would ask the same question about the circumstances of the deaths.
But you are right. I wouldn't think it was content only for hardcore raiders same as I don't think chaotic is only for them.
I purely think chaotic in it's form now is too punishing for what it wants to be.

This sounds like EX. However, there are people saying that even this is too much commitment since it requires looking at guides.

Like I said. Ex has a huge scale in it's difficulty.

[AllenThyl]

I mean one of the first chaotic clears was with like 76+ damage downs, 15+ deaths, so that already sounds pretty forgiving for content. You can mess up at least 3 towers at any given time, if you pump heavy shields for them (not a tank LB). Factoring Tank LB massively reduces the difficulty as well but alot of people don't always use it for whatever reason. That's already enough room for error. What the complainers want is just another alliance raid in general, not one any more difficult than what we've currently had though, which is clearly not what this content was meant to be from the get go. The community is the problem. The moment they face any smidge of challenge they cry, especially if a glam is behind it.

The last two sentences cannot be stressed enough. This raid exposes a few problematic behaviors that the community at large has simply normalized, but shouldn't have. Both those who engage in high-end duties regularly, and those who don't. The second group has being shown that they have 0 clue how high-end duties work, likely never stepped foot in it, yet the rhetoric is one of incredible entitlement. And that isn't even about the rewards, just the very fact how much complaining was going on because there were some (emphasis, SOME!) groups that had an ilvl requirement higher than the min ilvl requirement of the duty. "Gatekeeping", "Exclusions", "hating on those they deem lesser", all terms that were thrown around in these forums.

The high-end duty participants on the other hand have clearly demonstrated how low their actual skill level is. What happens in PF even for savage, is that most people are essentially fishing for a clear, i.e. hope that the one pattern that they can actually do most (70%) of the time comes up. Because "a clear is a clear", so it only matters once per week to get it done. Whether it's 30 mins or 5 hours. This has always been the problem for reclears, but it's now amplified with three times that amount of people. Further, this whole body check tower argument is so flawed, "only one person dead wipes the raid". No, one tower does not wipe the raid, and 2nd, why is anyone who is in a kill / clear / farm party even dead at that point? The towers are a body check for correctly executing the previous mechanic, people need to actually learn the previous mechanic! Not 75% of the time, 99%! The add is indicating the mechanic slowly, with enough time to preposition (which could also be used for after the swaps, but can't expect people to think on feet, right?). One could just stop dpsing for those few seconds to concentrate on the movement, but nooooooooooooooo, it's the "mechanic that is hard".

The raid also showed that the main mode of operation for the largest part of the raiding community is "following the guide", instead of understanding the fight / mechanics and why the solution in the guide is the solution to the mechanic. If the swaps are a bit scuffed and 3 melees find themselves on one of the platforms, people will more likely than not overlap on the melee positions instead of going to one of the ranged position because "that's what it says in the guide".

[Gurgeh]

The first boss of Dun Scaith also has a soft enrage- it will eventually turn the entire platform into void death squares.

Dunscaith 1st boss, Alpha 3.0 normal.
Best 'casual' content in the game. That is what they need to look to.

- Everyone starts out hating and (kind of) dreading Dunscaith for the first boss above all.
- But you can't avoid repeating it. And now your learning it, you are getting better. Everyone is getting better.
- The mechanics are quite clear, so you feel like your learning even while your dying. You don't entirely loose hope.
- If you are struggling its not so hard that you even have to watch a video, the old style written guides give you a enough of a clue.
- But while you not good at it you really know, you are dead! You are KO.
- When you start to get good at it you really know, again you are not dead!
- If your a healer that is bad at it still, people suddenly start dying. But a little chat highlighting the 'doom esuna'... and now your top of it... and you feel your making a difference! In fact you can kind of start to feel like your carrying people (almost).
- All the jobs are having to do the same mechanics or die, so the tank too feels like if they are not having to be ressed, they get to feel like they are making a difference, becuase - -- they are one less think for a healer, who is always busy in that fight, to have to deal with. Or the other tanks who'd have to take over.
- And then one day you find your the one than knows the mechanics, and the sprouts around you don't, and you can 'see' the difference. Learning the fight matters.

- And whats more, even better, you get a smile when you see it, because this just might be one of those runs where we will get a wipe, and you get to be reminded that as experienced as you are, it at least that still matters that you are experienced. Granted thats a hard thing to design in a balanced way, so we are not going to get every instance to wipe 1/10 for all eternity.

And the same for Alpha 3.0.
Its very fast (comparatively to other casual), a total cluster.
The star/lard mech can be fairly hard for some learn, and I suspect at least a 'little' challenging first time for all.
Its fast paced, new mech type, new mech type, new mech type. puzzle react, position, add attack, dps check, tether.
If you don't know it you KO, or get hit pretty badly. But once you learn that mechanic you go from inevitable near death to so much smoother sailing. 'You really get feedback that you are improving', and fast.
If both tanks don't know it its obvious, and a wipe is goign to be hard to avoid.
IF both healers don't know its same.
One tank and one healer though can carry.
The DPS know they matter because of DPS check. The DPS get to feel good to because KO.
Its on the edge becuase I've seen it abandon a couple of times, however, when it was new, its doubtful, you'd have to wait long for one of those carries from a roul fill

The midcore content we want can be made. It is possible.
Something that matters, where you know (even if it is easy) that knowing is making a difference.

That's not the case with over 90% of casual content sadly. Yes you can die but its pretty hard. M3 is the nearest I've seen, in DT, but the only person who needs to learn the mechanics are the healers. Once they know it, there is no amount of tank or DPS fck up that's probably even going to result in a KO.

There is content that is the casual 'challenge' midcore that people are talking about I believe. And the game reall has next to none.
The problem is people are going to hate it if it ever finally arrives, because they DO massively underestimate themselves, because little in the game has shown them that while they cant clear something first pull, 20 minutes later on pull number five they sure as heck can pull together and get through, and when they think back to the firs pull, maybe they were thinking "how the heck?" And now they feel good.

But instead is OP MSQ for years... oh here now try Extremes! (god it must be soul crushing to be a healer going from OP casual to your first Extreme.)

[CNitsah]

the other 30 threads beat you to it

Well, this a has been a problem that players have pointed out for years, yet the devs achieve to miss it but saw the inexistant threads about "we miss a difficulty between extreme and savage". So I guess repeating it might not be such a bad idea.

[IOwn92FCHouses]

Well, this a has been a problem that players have pointed out for years, yet the devs achieve to miss it but saw the inexistant threads about "we miss a difficulty between extreme and savage". So I guess repeating it might not be such a bad idea.

The devs can't fix player incompetence. The step between Extreme and Savage is the 1st floor of the savage tier, which is typically on par with, or slightly harder, than an extreme.

If some of you find this to be too big a step, there is no helping you.

[Lilapop]

I mean one of the first chaotic clears was with like 76+ damage downs, 15+ deaths, so that already sounds pretty forgiving for content. You can mess up at least 3 towers at any given time, if you pump heavy shields for them (not a tank LB). Factoring Tank LB massively reduces the difficulty as well but alot of people don't always use it for whatever reason. That's already enough room for error. What the complainers want is just another alliance raid in general, not one any more difficult than what we've currently had though, which is clearly not what this content was meant to be from the get go. The community is the problem. The moment they face any smidge of challenge they cry, especially if a glam is behind it.

People cry about anything on the internet, not really a new or groundbreaking point there. "You can mess up at least 2 towers at any given time, IF..." okay, not every raid will have shields ready to go for missed towers. Yes. The complainers DO want another alliance raid in general. Since, yknow, that's what was marketed. A harder 24 person alliance raid. Not a 24 person Savage trial thats Savage difficulty. The community is 100% a problem, but if you're going to forgive the developers blatantly messing this raid up in specific (which is ALSO a problem), then you as well are part of that problem.

[CNitsah]

The devs can't fix player incompetence. The step between Extreme and Savage is the 1st floor of the savage tier, which is typically on par with, or slightly harder, than an extreme.

If some of you find this to be too big a step, there is no helping you.

There is no helping your reading comprehension either, I guess. The thread is about having a difficulty between normal and extreme, and I mention it's something that has been asked year, yet the dev team achieve to miss those complaints and give a thing between extreme and savage (the chaotic raid), that basically no one asked for. How does anything to do with me asking for a lvl between extreme and savage. Are you ok? Can I help you somehow?

[Lilapop]

snip

Good grief. Are you familiar with the saying "mileage may vary"? Just because you don't see one tower wiping the raid doesn't mean the people who have seen it are exaggerating. You're not in every run to ever be ran, you cannot speak for everyone. Why is anyone dead in a party that's trying to clear? Do you actually want a full list of reasons or is that rhetorical? One could just stop dpsing for those few seconds..., raiders who don't make it their life, people who are trying to get into raiding, and people who simply don't raid hear about how big of a deal uptime is, and how important it is to keep uptime up as well as "always" be casting. So, which is it? Are you going to complain about people for casting too much? Or when they stop to actually do the mechanic are you going to complain because they stopped casting?

Yes. "Following the guide". The main mode of the raiding community, the main mode endorsed by the raiding community, the main mode I have seen shoved down my raiding friend's throats, new raider's throats, and people who refuse to raid without a guide. Typically, according to the typical raid, you watch the guide, you understand the guide, that's all that is required other than proper gear and food. What's your point? Why mention this? Complaining to complain? If you actually took a moment to think through anything you said you would realize that: firstly, none of this is new. Secondly, you're not actually saying anything at all.