We are missing Content between Normal and Extreme. Wrong Audience for Chaotic

[Jeeqbit]

You can mess up at least 3 towers at any given time, if you pump heavy shields for them (not a tank LB). Factoring Tank LB massively reduces the difficulty as well but alot of people don't always use it for whatever reason. That's already enough room for error.

I really don't know why people are complaining then, because the rest of the fight other than that seemed like it could be managed because I got through to tile phase, sometimes pretty smoothly in the first few hours of release... before guides, before anything.

The community is the problem. The moment they face any smidge of challenge they cry, especially if a glam is behind it.

Unfortunately true.

[Mawlzy]

I really don't know why people are complaining then, because the rest of the fight other than that seemed like it could be managed because I got through to tile phase, sometimes pretty smoothly in the first few hours of release... before guides, before anything.
Unfortunately true.

Blaming players for finding the game lacking is the last stage before MMOs sunset.

[Jeeqbit]

Blaming players for finding the game lacking is the last stage before MMOs sunset.

I wasn't blaming players for finding the game lacking, but rather for wanting all content to be unreasonably easy. If people spend the same amount of effort trying to clear the fight as they do complaining about it, they might clear it.

And yes, I understand that some people can't do certain content in the game due to limitations. And maybe the content isn't for them if that's the case. I'm talking about people who don't have such limits but just immediately come to the forums and say it's clique content without really giving it a good try.

It happened with Eureka where, just because it took NMs a little bit of time to spawn, they wanted them to spawn instantly resulting in Bozja's Skirmishes which spawn instantly one after the other. People just have no patience for things taking time and want everything instantly (then subsequently complain there's no content and they are bored). Can't have it both ways.

I think we just have a fundamental disagreement on how big the gap between current normal raids and extremes is.

I don't think Extreme difficulty is the issue. I think the issue is the culture of using Party Finder for it instead of a direct queue makes it feel more difficult than it is, which has only been a problem in western regions, because they queue in the JP region.

When I get Extremes in Mentor Roulette for example - and this is with loads of sprouts - I usually teach the fight and we clear it. 99% of Extremes I've got in Mentor Roulette have been a clear, including Tsukuyomi, Thordan, Ultima's Bane, Ramuh, and countless Great Hunt Ex. Granted this is with gear growth and occasionally Echo stacks, but the same thing can happen with current extremes (gear growth) and it's not that long before they add Echo stacks anyway.

Like everything, Chaotic will probably feel a lot easier as time goes on.

Going off of pure difficulty I would absolutely put it on par with normal raids, it was incredibly easy.

BA was ridiculously easy when I did it. All the fights before Ozma felt easier than Sastasha. And Ozma's mechanics are mostly wholesale taken from the version in Weeping City which was also never that hard but sometimes took a few pulls. Except of course it's more punishing (more likely to kill, harder to get a rez and can eject you from the instance).

But the rez and eject gimmicks, and "get enough people" gimmicks, make it useful to have a discord for it. But the bigger reason discords had to pick it up was deciding portals. Ironically, coordinating portal entry is the main "coordination" needed.

[AllenThyl]

I mean one of the first chaotic clears was with like 76+ damage downs, 15+ deaths, so that already sounds pretty forgiving for content. You can mess up at least 3 towers at any given time, if you pump heavy shields for them (not a tank LB). Factoring Tank LB massively reduces the difficulty as well but alot of people don't always use it for whatever reason. That's already enough room for error. What the complainers want is just another alliance raid in general, not one any more difficult than what we've currently had though, which is clearly not what this content was meant to be from the get go. The community is the problem. The moment they face any smidge of challenge they cry, especially if a glam is behind it.

The last two sentences cannot be stressed enough. This raid exposes a few problematic behaviors that the community at large has simply normalized, but shouldn't have. Both those who engage in high-end duties regularly, and those who don't. The second group has being shown that they have 0 clue how high-end duties work, likely never stepped foot in it, yet the rhetoric is one of incredible entitlement. And that isn't even about the rewards, just the very fact how much complaining was going on because there were some (emphasis, SOME!) groups that had an ilvl requirement higher than the min ilvl requirement of the duty. "Gatekeeping", "Exclusions", "hating on those they deem lesser", all terms that were thrown around in these forums.

The high-end duty participants on the other hand have clearly demonstrated how low their actual skill level is. What happens in PF even for savage, is that most people are essentially fishing for a clear, i.e. hope that the one pattern that they can actually do most (70%) of the time comes up. Because "a clear is a clear", so it only matters once per week to get it done. Whether it's 30 mins or 5 hours. This has always been the problem for reclears, but it's now amplified with three times that amount of people. Further, this whole body check tower argument is so flawed, "only one person dead wipes the raid". No, one tower does not wipe the raid, and 2nd, why is anyone who is in a kill / clear / farm party even dead at that point? The towers are a body check for correctly executing the previous mechanic, people need to actually learn the previous mechanic! Not 75% of the time, 99%! The add is indicating the mechanic slowly, with enough time to preposition (which could also be used for after the swaps, but can't expect people to think on feet, right?). One could just stop dpsing for those few seconds to concentrate on the movement, but nooooooooooooooo, it's the "mechanic that is hard".

The raid also showed that the main mode of operation for the largest part of the raiding community is "following the guide", instead of understanding the fight / mechanics and why the solution in the guide is the solution to the mechanic. If the swaps are a bit scuffed and 3 melees find themselves on one of the platforms, people will more likely than not overlap on the melee positions instead of going to one of the ranged position because "that's what it says in the guide".

[Lilapop]

snip

Good grief. Are you familiar with the saying "mileage may vary"? Just because you don't see one tower wiping the raid doesn't mean the people who have seen it are exaggerating. You're not in every run to ever be ran, you cannot speak for everyone. Why is anyone dead in a party that's trying to clear? Do you actually want a full list of reasons or is that rhetorical? One could just stop dpsing for those few seconds..., raiders who don't make it their life, people who are trying to get into raiding, and people who simply don't raid hear about how big of a deal uptime is, and how important it is to keep uptime up as well as "always" be casting. So, which is it? Are you going to complain about people for casting too much? Or when they stop to actually do the mechanic are you going to complain because they stopped casting?

Yes. "Following the guide". The main mode of the raiding community, the main mode endorsed by the raiding community, the main mode I have seen shoved down my raiding friend's throats, new raider's throats, and people who refuse to raid without a guide. Typically, according to the typical raid, you watch the guide, you understand the guide, that's all that is required other than proper gear and food. What's your point? Why mention this? Complaining to complain? If you actually took a moment to think through anything you said you would realize that: firstly, none of this is new. Secondly, you're not actually saying anything at all.

[AllenThyl]

Good grief. Are you familiar with the saying "mileage may vary"? Just because you don't see one tower wiping the raid doesn't mean the people who have seen it are exaggerating.

A single exploding tower does not deal enough damage to just outright wipe everyone. Which is in stark contrast to some towers in savage fights, which in fact do immediately wipe the raid, because they explode for <max damage number>, cannot be mitigated and go through invuln. People dying to a single tower means they were too low on health. As I said, the towers are a check for properly executing the previous mechanic. That includes mitigating and healing the phase transition raidwide as well as the one 15 seconds after that, and the following add mechanic.

You're not in every run to ever be ran, you cannot speak for everyone. Why is anyone dead in a party that's trying to clear? Do you actually want a full list of reasons or is that rhetorical?

The Chaotic Alliance Raid is a pretty difficult combat duty. The boss is there to kill all the players. Apart from disconnects, dead people are the result purely of failed mechanics on the player side. The boss doesn't have a "randomly kill someone" mechanic when every mechanic was properly executed. If someone has connection problems, then they need to abstain from joining a duty that requires them to have a stable connection. If someone cannot reliably do a mechanic, they need to join a practice party and practice this one mechanic. All the excuses you could list are just that, excuses. Again, this is hard combat content. Successful completion of said duty requires successfully resolving all mechanics until the boss hp drops to 0. Not half of them, or a third, or 4/5th, or any of that. All of them. Every single attempt.

One could just stop dpsing for those few seconds..., raiders who don't make it their life, people who are trying to get into raiding, and people who simply don't raid hear about how big of a deal uptime is, and how important it is to keep uptime up as well as "always" be casting. So, which is it? Are you going to complain about people for casting too much? Or when they stop to actually do the mechanic are you going to complain because they stopped casting?

DPS optimization only matter if the mechanics can be correctly resolved and the raid ends because of enrage. Uptime means nothing if the raid is dead. There is no contradiction here. That's why people greeding during prog is so annoying. Melees have to do brambles and can at best do their ranged pewpew, but so what? That's what's required to correctly solve the mechanics, so that's what needs to be done. A single person dying is more of a dps loss than if some people on the platform don't dps for 4 gcds. I mean, do you even raid, or are you just here to stir the pot? Because this all sounds like the blind talking about colors.

Yes. "Following the guide". The main mode of the raiding community, the main mode endorsed by the raiding community, the main mode I have seen shoved down my raiding friend's throats, new raider's throats, and people who refuse to raid without a guide. Typically, according to the typical raid, you watch the guide, you understand the guide, that's all that is required other than proper gear and food. What's your point? Why mention this? Complaining to complain? If you actually took a moment to think through anything you said you would realize that: firstly, none of this is new. Secondly, you're not actually saying anything at all.

The question is more, what are YOU even here for? Judging by your words, you don't raid, so why are you talking about the raiding culture as if you actually know what's going on? Or are suffering from it? You don't have to jump into the fray and fight for non-existent people just to make yourself feel better.
Everyone is free to make their own parties. If a party says "we are doing plan A", then the people who join should then follow plan A. If someone doesn't want to do plan A, don't join that particular party. The same goes for prog point. Being honest about one's own progression and skill doesn't get anyone in trouble. What does cause friction, is people joining a kill party, but failing repeatedly on mechanics in phase 2. That's what "prog lying" means. That's what "entitlement" looks like. And that's precisely what this encounter has exposed of the community.

[Gurgeh]

...No, one tower does not wipe the raid, and 2nd, why is anyone who is in a kill / clear / farm party even dead at that point? The towers are a body check for correctly executing the previous mechanic, people need to actually learn the previous mechanic! Not 75% of the time, 99%! The add is indicating the mechanic slowly, with enough time to preposition (which could also be used for after the swaps, but can't expect people to think on feet, right?). One could just stop dpsing for those few seconds to concentrate on the movement, but nooooooooooooooo, it's the "mechanic that is hard".
....

First of all Allen, your kind of a legend, and your so indiscriminate with your judgments that the biggest offense would be being found unworthy of having you descend to correct our thinking. I kind of mean that, I don't see how people can take offence. The statements are either bombastic or just shave so much conviction.

That said, I do think you are being entirely serious above. But I also really think that being consistent probably comes easy to you, and that you don't understand the degree to which other people will always make mistakes in a way that you just outside of understanding of the differences between people? I think if everyone actually kept themselves out of kill parties in the way you say they should, that there would be some people (like me) that effectively banned from kill parties for life. It might even be that you'd answer "well maybe then? Yes?" But that's not practical. I'm quite confident that no matter how slow the boss is at telegraphing, that I will always be capable of suddenly getting distracted, or having a 'moment' and screwing up. I could believe that they way you are put together, that just can't happen.
But it is totally impractical to expect people to keep themselves out of kill parties, once they've cleared, and once they've got about as good as they think they can get.
Take Chaotic dooms. When I get tired, and I'm not always aware of when that is, my memory goes. It becomes impossible for me to tell if the hand I'm remembering a few seconds later is the hand from this pull or the previous one. I'm not sure if that is going to get better as I play more. And its not something I am aware of. A memory is a memory, correct or incorrect.

I've said it in this forum before, some people have what it takes to become a fighter pilot that can fly sortie in a warzone for 8 hours and then land back on an aircraft carrier in a storm, while other people will keep denting their hatchback run-around in the supermarket carpark their entire lives.

[AllenThyl]

First of all Allen, your kind of a legend, and your so indiscriminate with your judgments that the biggest offense would be being found unworthy of having you descend to correct our thinking.

You accused everyone who was able to craft practically anything of cheating / using ToS violating 3rd party addons, including just using a macro. Your "thinking" doesn't justify just outright making up falsehoods. It's not a difference of "opinion" when talking about verifiable facts, and this is a synthetic game, which follows programming logic implemented by humans.

That said, I do think you are being entirely serious above. But I also really think that being consistent probably comes easy to you, and that you don't understand the degree to which other people will always make mistakes in a way that you just outside of understanding of the differences between people? I think if everyone actually kept themselves out of kill parties in the way you say they should, that there would be some people (like me) that effectively banned from kill parties for life. It might even be that you'd answer "well maybe then? Yes?" But that's not practical. I'm quite confident that no matter how slow the boss is at telegraphing, that I will always be capable of suddenly getting distracted, or having a 'moment' and screwing up. I could believe that they way you are put together, that just can't happen.
But it is totally impractical to expect people to keep themselves out of kill parties, once they've cleared, and once they've got about as good as they think they can get.
Take Chaotic dooms. When I get tired, and I'm not always aware of when that is, my memory goes. It becomes impossible for me to tell if the hand I'm remembering a few seconds later is the hand from this pull or the previous one. I'm not sure if that is going to get better as I play more. And its not something I am aware of. A memory is a memory, correct or incorrect.

I've said it in this forum before, some people have what it takes to become a fighter pilot that can fly sortie in a warzone for 8 hours and then land back on an aircraft carrier in a storm, while other people will keep denting their hatchback run-around in the supermarket carpark their entire lives.

Or as I put it:

This raid exposes a few problematic behaviors that the community at large has simply normalized, but shouldn't have.

If you find 23 other people who are fine with you messing up again and again, good for you. Everyone was in agreement about that, and you are all adults, you can all do what you want together. If you join a kill party of strangers while being the person who consistently messes up but expects everyone else to "just deal with it" as if you aren't replaceable at short notice, you are simply entitled and selfish. You expect others to do more of the work, than you yourself are willing of providing. That's what "progging" means. Not just reaching a point, but acquiring the skills necessary to reach this point consistently.

[Lilapop]

I mean one of the first chaotic clears was with like 76+ damage downs, 15+ deaths, so that already sounds pretty forgiving for content. You can mess up at least 3 towers at any given time, if you pump heavy shields for them (not a tank LB). Factoring Tank LB massively reduces the difficulty as well but alot of people don't always use it for whatever reason. That's already enough room for error. What the complainers want is just another alliance raid in general, not one any more difficult than what we've currently had though, which is clearly not what this content was meant to be from the get go. The community is the problem. The moment they face any smidge of challenge they cry, especially if a glam is behind it.

People cry about anything on the internet, not really a new or groundbreaking point there. "You can mess up at least 2 towers at any given time, IF..." okay, not every raid will have shields ready to go for missed towers. Yes. The complainers DO want another alliance raid in general. Since, yknow, that's what was marketed. A harder 24 person alliance raid. Not a 24 person Savage trial thats Savage difficulty. The community is 100% a problem, but if you're going to forgive the developers blatantly messing this raid up in specific (which is ALSO a problem), then you as well are part of that problem.

[mangelinabrolee]

Yeah I have to agree, im still waiting for a grind like eureka with a dungeon like BA, they really are making only content for the hardcore player base and semi harccore and nothing for casuals or people who enjoy a grind.