Chaotic Alliance Raid is a fun fight, but awful content

[Kaurhz]

All the discussion around this fight both here and on reddit is making me realize that FFXIV's problem is not that it lacks enough specifically casual, specifically "midcore," or specifically hardcore content; it's that FFXIV has nothing in it that people log in and do just because it's fun.

Nearly all of the repeatable content in the game is run via Duty Finder (minimal filtering) or Party Finder (somewhat more filtering), but both allow for some degree of an antagonistic experience. There's no "this is gonna be fun to play regardless of who I end up playing with"; rather, it's more "god, I hope I have a good group so that this goes by quickly and I can get my big dopamine hit." It's a fundamental gap in the FFXIV experience.

Honestly, whilst I agree, I actually think what you've diagnosed is precisely due to these reasons:

making me realize that FFXIV's problem is not that it lacks enough specifically casual, specifically "midcore," or specifically hardcore content

The content types here should ideally feed into each other, e.g., ideally a casual player should be able to finish the story and then be adequately prepared to step into extreme content, for example, without needing to adjust to pacing, or for example learn their class. Now we can say ideally at level 100 people should be able to do this fundamentally, but the game doesn't actually encourage the latter, and in the case of the former where they have pacing it often times comes without consequence, to where you can ignore it all and be OK in casual content. At the very least people should be aware that a struggle has happened as opposed to being able to shrug it off and not think about it again. There's nothing in that experience that leads your typical player to finish the duty and then do even rudimentary reflection, which is where the improvement comes in.

You might ask why does that relate to fun? Because regardless of what pacing people may or may not enjoy you're indirectly indoctrinating them into a specific way of thinking, people can begin to be content with things being too easy, and then eventually satisfied because the visual spectacle detracts from everything else. If SE put a little bit more expectancy on the player through the natural course of the game, then in turn those that do the harder content will have that trustworthiness in those players.

Realistically what SE has done has developed everything in such a way that leads one side of the player-base to have no faith in another, and in some cases why would they when the game itself doesn't facilitate? This in turn makes a lot more people not enjoy it when they otherwise probably actually would if SE developed everything in a more natural and progressive manner, rather than pedal between progressive and regressive. People would have a lot more fun if the experience was progressive and naturally fed to the next difficulty tier.

It's somewhat disappointing because all of this finger pointing is ignoring a very large issue that has gone on for a very long time.

[Lilapop]

Honestly, whilst I agree, I actually think what you've diagnosed is precisely due to these reasons:

The content types here should ideally feed into each other, e.g., ideally a casual player should be able to finish the story and then be adequately prepared to step into extreme content, for example, without needing to adjust to pacing, or for example learn their class. Now we can say ideally at level 100 people should be able to do this fundamentally, but the game doesn't actually encourage the latter, and in the case of the former where they have pacing it often times comes without consequence, to where you can ignore it all and be OK in casual content. At the very least people should be aware that a struggle has happened as opposed to being able to shrug it off and not think about it again. There's nothing in that experience that leads your typical player to finish the duty and then do even rudimentary reflection, which is where the improvement comes in.

You might ask why does that relate to fun? Because regardless of what pacing people may or may not enjoy you're indirectly indoctrinating them into a specific way of thinking, people can begin to be content with things being too easy, and then eventually satisfied because the visual spectacle detracts from everything else. If SE put a little bit more expectancy on the player through the natural course of the game, then in turn those that do the harder content will have that trustworthiness in those players.

Realistically what SE has done has developed everything in such a way that leads one side of the player-base to have no faith in another, and in some cases why would they when the game itself doesn't facilitate? This in turn makes a lot more people not enjoy it when they otherwise probably actually would if SE developed everything in a more natural and progressive manner, rather than pedal between progressive and regressive. People would have a lot more fun if the experience was progressive and naturally fed to the next difficulty tier.

It's somewhat disappointing because all of this finger pointing is ignoring a very large issue that has gone on for a very long time.

Having MSQ end with a raid prepared player doesn't solve the problem of not everybody is a raider who wants to get into raiding.

[Kaurhz]

Having MSQ end with a raid prepared player doesn't solve the problem of not everybody is a raider who wants to get into raiding.

It's not about having everyone be a complete raid-ready player, it's more about the source content -- MSQ in this instance, commanding at least the minimal level of respect to where any rational and sane mind can go "That's OK, it shouldn't be an issue", it's about helping players on the course of their journey have a level of self-reflection which helps them understand when something has gone wrong, and when it may or may not be their fault, in addition to where that player starting the content can start it with a modicum of confidence and contribute, without feeling like they may be a burden to other players.

It transitions them better into content they may enjoy. There's a lot more wrong with having MSQ end players not prepared in a capacity at all for what future content may offer, and there's certainly a lot more wrong when a good amount of people that are doing that content don't have any faith in those players at all.

[Lilapop]

It's not about having everyone be a complete raid-ready player, it's more about the source content -- MSQ in this instance, commanding at least the minimal level of respect to where any rational and sane mind can go "That's OK, it shouldn't be an issue", it's about helping players on the course of their journey have a level of self-reflection which helps them understand when something has gone wrong, and when it may or may not be their fault, in addition to where that player starting the content can start it with a modicum of confidence and contribute, without feeling like they may be a burden to other players.

It transitions them better into content they may enjoy.

Genuinely feel like you just reworded the thing I argued against...

MSQ should be a tad harder, yes, so braincells have to be used. If the sole purpose of having MSQ be harder is "hey u did the raid and u got raid gear time to do raiding... yknow... just in case..." then the game would be heading into a direction only raiders would favor, as it currently is in this expansion.

[Kaurhz]

Genuinely feel like you just reworded the thing I argued against...

MSQ should be a tad harder, yes, so braincells have to be used. If the sole purpose of having MSQ be harder is "hey u did the raid and u got raid gear time to do raiding... yknow... just in case..." then the game would be heading into a direction only raiders would favor, as it currently is in this expansion.

Because it feels like you misunderstood the point I was making, making the MSQ be a tad harder addresses the very point you were arguing against in my post. Either you misunderstood or you were severely overestimating what I meant by better preparing players and creating a smoother transition.

If players aren't confident or feel like they aren't prepared (which many don't), then they are going to be less inclined to try, similarly if those in the community actively doing that content don't feel like they are prepared for it. I'm not saying it's the only issue, but it's a massive part of an issue that has festered for very long and keeps creeping up from time to time whenever they try content like this.

The point was that fun only really comes for many players when they are prepared for it, and not overwhelmed, and the MSQ experience alone creates the situation where players are overwhelmed fairly easily. If they are less overwhelmed then they will be more inclined to try and have fun. It's not really about treating it as the situation where... "Oh you did MSQ, therefore you must do raiding content, and therefore more content must be designed around that", which is how I am understanding your interpretation of what I said, based on your last paragraph.

[Lilapop]

Because it feels like you misunderstood the point I was making, making the MSQ be a tad harder addresses the very point you were arguing against in my post. Either you misunderstood or you were severely overestimating what I meant by better preparing players and creating a smoother transition.

If players aren't confident or feel like they aren't prepared (which many don't), then they are going to be less inclined to try, similarly if those in the community actively doing that content don't feel like they are prepared for it. I'm not saying it's the only issue, but it's a massive part of an issue that has festered for very long and keeps creeping up from time to time whenever they try content like this.

The point was that fun only really comes for many players when they are prepared for it, and not overwhelmed, and the MSQ experience alone creates the situation where players are overwhelmed fairly easily. If they are less overwhelmed then they will be more inclined to try and have fun. It's not really about treating it as the situation where... "Oh you did MSQ, therefore you must do raiding content, and therefore more content must be designed around that", which is how I am understanding your interpretation of what I said, based on your last paragraph.

That is how I interpreted it, I see and agree with your point for the most part. While I would never personally advocate for MSQ to be brought up to either the difficulty level or gear level (gearing up passively is easy in and of itself and the gearing up treadmill is a whole other discussion), the game does do a terrible job at teaching the player anything other than face-mash keyboard and you can get through the main content, every other bit of combat in the game takes some actual braincells to do and as the chaotic raid has shown us, the average player who only does MSQ is definitely way under prepared.

[TemporalFruitsAndVeggies]

The content types here should ideally feed into each other, e.g., ideally a casual player should be able to finish the story and then be adequately prepared to step into extreme content, for example, without needing to adjust to pacing, or for example learn their class. Now we can say ideally at level 100 people should be able to do this fundamentally, but the game doesn't actually encourage the latter, and in the case of the former where they have pacing it often times comes without consequence, to where you can ignore it all and be OK in casual content. At the very least people should be aware that a struggle has happened as opposed to being able to shrug it off and not think about it again. There's nothing in that experience that leads your typical player to finish the duty and then do even rudimentary reflection, which is where the improvement comes in.

You've actually inadvertently helped my argument (I think) by hopping immediately to instanced boss fights, while forgetting (like most players do) that FFXIV has an enormous game world that sits functionally empty the vast majority of the time. In Guild Wars 2, I can go run around the world, smack mobs, and do random dynamic events. This is the purest form of baseline content in GW2: accessible 24/7, can be done solo, provides a constant trickle of useful rewards. Many people, myself included, also find it fun, which is why it's hard to go anywhere in the game's giant world where you won't find at least one other person aimlessly wandering around, as well. People do it simply because they want to.

You CAN do this in FFXIV, but I think we can all agree that it is objectively neither fun nor rewarding, or else people would do it, but they don't. Sure, people grind FATEs, the design of which has not evolved in a full decade, for the sole purpose of being done with grinding FATEs. No one ever returns to FATEs after the fact because they've thought, "I just really wanna do a few FATEs right now, because they're fun."

And I think this is the core issue with the game: the end-goal of all content types, before players have even set foot in them, is to be "done" with them. "One more expert roulette until I'm capped on tomestones, then I'm done for the week." "Two more EX3 clears for totems, then I'm done for all the alts I care about." "Three more M4S clears, then I have enough books to be done." "Four more FATEs, then I never have to come to Heritage Found again." "Two more weeks of prog, then I'm done with this Ultimate." The view of almost everything is that it is a chore that needs completed.

Where is that underlying, always available, who-cares-how-easy-or-hard-it-is, do-it-just-because-it's-fun content? Some people may get that from PvP, and some people may get that from Eureka/Bozja (although the goal there is still to "be done"), but I think that's the case for a minority of players, and the majority just...doesn't have that.

[Kaurhz]

You've actually inadvertently helped my argument (I think) by hopping immediately to instanced boss fights, while forgetting (like most players do) that FFXIV has an enormous game world that sits functionally empty the vast majority of the time. In Guild Wars 2, I can go run around the world, smack mobs, and do random dynamic events. This is the purest form of baseline content in GW2: accessible 24/7, can be done solo, provides a constant trickle of useful rewards. Many people, myself included, also find it fun, which is why it's hard to go anywhere in the game's giant world where you won't find at least one other person aimlessly wandering around, as well. People do it simply because they want to.

You CAN do this in FFXIV, but I think we can all agree that it is objectively neither fun nor rewarding, or else people would do it, but they don't. Sure, people grind FATEs, the design of which has not evolved in a full decade, for the sole purpose of being done with grinding FATEs. No one ever returns to FATEs after the fact because they've thought, "I just really wanna do a few FATEs right now, because they're fun."

And I think this is the core issue with the game: the end-goal of all content types, before players have even set foot in them, is to be "done" with them. "One more expert roulette until I'm capped on tomestones, then I'm done for the week." "Two more EX3 clears for totems, then I'm done for all the alts I care about." "Three more M4S clears, then I have enough books to be done." "Four more FATEs, then I never have to come to Heritage Found again." "Two more weeks of prog, then I'm done with this Ultimate." The view of almost everything is that it is a chore that needs completed.

Where is that underlying, always available, who-cares-how-easy-or-hard-it-is, do-it-just-because-it's-fun content? Some people may get that from PvP, and some people may get that from Eureka/Bozja (although the goal there is still to "be done"), but I think that's the case for a minority of players, and the majority just...doesn't have that.

I mean I wasn't disagreeing with it by any stretch of the imagination (Sorry if I gave the impression I did?), just that one of the issues you've pointed out is partially resolved by lack of certain content, or lack of certain substance in it. I know as much as anyone that raiding isn't for everyone seeing as I stopped enjoying it around the time it became noticeable with my visual impairment. My main point was just part of the 'fun' issue is not down to 1 single thing, and lack of preparedness via Normal/Story content is just as big of an issue as just pure enjoyment of content. Like, I know plenty of people that would want to step into raiding or higher end for example but won't because they feel like nothing has prepared them to do so. It's been a common point of issue in my circle recently where.. I've had people that loved everything up to Endwalker (They were relatively newer), but hated this expansion, and a large factor of that was because they were doing a fully fledged expansion on-content, which they weren't prepared for and unironically knocked their enjoyment significantly. Wasn't until they got more confident and practiced that they actually started to enjoy it more. For some people -- A lot in fact I would say, confidence and preparedness, both their own and based on community perception play a gigantic factor in whether they enjoy it or not (Now whether that's healthy or not is a different argument), or whether they would even try it for that matter.

Honestly though as for your last point, fun for fun sake is a very difficult thing to achieve, as it ultimately diminishes with experience. Like, for me crafting was always that outlet since ARR, loved it just because.. But eventually as I got more experienced with it, and as I began to understand it, it became less and less about enjoyment for enjoyment sake, and more setting myself goals... How many statics can I craft for on day 1? How much Gil can I make on day 1? Can I push the first piece out on the market on my server? - Novelty is a very powerful tool, and novelty diminishes with time and experience, which is the biggest factor.

Honestly, FFXIV content lifecycle in many instances is far far too short and insular to facilitate the idea of 'do-it-just-because-it's-fun' content, everything is just far, far too short, and unfortunately everything in the game is designed to support this.

I have done far too much reading and typing for today so all of that might not flow well...?