should 8.0 cut the harder content back in exchange for-

[Tint]

8.0 should remove casual content and add a third ultimate, no need for casual content, most casuals are to dumb to do extremes so they should just stand in limsa and call it a day <---- does this sounds good? its exactly the same thing you want, if you dont like the idea then you clearly know what people think about your idea.

Just that casual players are hearing exactly that for years. "There is so much casual content, give us more hardcore content."

Then they essentially removed the casual floors from deep dungeon, removed dungeons and relic content in favor of Criterion. Now casual players get nothing while hardcore players get ultimate and 24 man savage.

We already lost casual content in favor of hardcore content.

[CNitsah]

Midcore will never work because no one can agree on what midcore is. My proof of that? I think savage is midcore content, because I don't think I'm all that good relatively speaking, yet I can get through it.



People say exploration content is midcore, yet to me there's nothing more casual that that lol.

It's because you let hardcore players define what midcore is. They tend to paint midcore content as a difficulty, when most the time, it's not. That's why they paint exploratory zones as casuals things. It sure is entry difficulty, but most casuals won't touch that content with stick. If they do, there is a possibility they entered the midcore players zone, despite thinking of themselves as casual. I like to use the example of Zepla wanting to do a video about how EW was bad for casuals, thinking she belonged there since she stopped raiding just to realise while talking with actual casuals how she knew nothing about being casual (which was obvious to everyone but her, honestly). The post above mine is another example of that deep dungeon and relics are not casual content, despite being simple enough.

Midcore players are people that will engage with most content, have a a lot of playtime, but won't engage in high difficulty content or content that will require organisation and block one day a week to raid. it's a really large category. More often than not, midcore players won't engage in extremes and higher content when it asks for scheldule, but will run them if they have a team of friends to do it.

So yeah, letting hardcore players define what are midcore and casual players doesn't seem right, because they always tell you it's about difficulty. It's not. Extreme is only midcore content depending how you engage with it. If you have static and scheldule one or two evenings a week to run it, you're in the hardcore player area, despite the difficulty being mid. Difficulty is only one part of the equation. How easy it is to engage with it also plays a big part in it. Basically, if you can't just enter the content and run it, it might not be midcore. You could argue that at this point Eureka Orthos kinda entered the hardcore player content, given how difficult it is to get a team: only the most dedicated players will run it : the hardcore players.

To me one of the biggest FFXIV team and Community is their limited ability to think content with other criteria than the difficulty, when how easy it's accessible (low entry barrier and no need to scheldule it), how replayable it is and how much shelf life it has matter as much, if not more.

I see people saying this expansion focus on midcore players, but I strongly disagree. As a midcore player myself (and a mmo player), I'm bored to death, and cranking up some mechanics in dungeons is not answering to midcore players. Midcore players wants thing to do in the game.

It's not casual, midcore or hardcore content, it's content for casuals, midcore or hardcore players, and difficulty is only one part of defining that. Midcore content (it's an abuse of language, but let's roll with it) is, more often that not, easy difficulty. It just ask for more time and more engagement. That's the kind of content that was entirely removed from the game with EW, and is severely lacking right now. What I tend to call the mmo content.

[AvoSturmfaust]

Just that casual players are hearing exactly that for years. "There is so much casual content, give us more hardcore content."

Then they essentially removed the casual floors from deep dungeon, removed dungeons and relic content in favor of Criterion. Now casual players get nothing while hardcore players get ultimate and 24 man savage.

We already lost casual content in favor of hardcore content.

They didnt remove Relic Content in Favor of Criterion, they did it because people keep complaining about the grind, still these days you hear people complain about ARR Relics and ShB, so Yoshi wanted that everyone with the least amount of effort can have a Relic, thats the Reason they did it and thats exactly the Reason he stated a few times in Interviews in the Past, only that they overdid it quit a bit. and now look at Bozja the Content is Death, how will People do the Relic when 90% of the Relic is "getting lucky to find a few people which do the stuff"

Criterion is Casual Content (The normal Version) Eureka Orthos the EW DD is Casual Content, the whole Island was Casual Content, Extremes are casual content etc etc etc, what do we get besides Savage which is with the current tier more on a extreme level of difficulity and Ultimates? You didnt lost anything because of Hardcore Content, you lost maybe because of Squares Lazyness.

[XtremePrime]

I thought midcore is like extremes and what not? And savage sorta straddles the inbetween of extremes/ultimates?

If Ex is considered midcore, then gosh I'm such a bad player.

[Kohashi]

It's because you let hardcore players define what midcore is. They tend to paint midcore content as a difficulty, when most the time, it's not. That's why they paint exploratory zones as casuals things. It sure is entry difficulty, but most casuals won't touch that content with stick. If they do, there is a possibility they entered the midcore players zone, despite thinking of themselves as casual. I like to use the example of Zepla wanting to do a video about how EW was bad for casuals, thinking she belonged there since she stopped raiding just to realise while talking with actual casuals how she knew nothing about being casual (which was obvious to everyone but her, honestly). The post above mine is another example of that deep dungeon and relics are not casual content, despite being simple enough.

Zepla was a hardcore raider, she also cleared DRS (last I watched her) while the fight was current, which is an achievement in itself. EW Asphodelos was casual, Abyssos was more hardcore mostly because of how front-loaded some of the fights were and how much the fights relied on everyone being consistent + p8s which was mad hard on release, and Anabaseios was dirt easy and also casual (except p10s which was a wall for PF cause god forbid they knew how to do bonds 3).

Just because you are terrible at the game doesn't mean there's something wrong with the content nor does it mean they have to cater to you specifically. Savage might not be low-end casual, those are Extremes but it is mid-core.

You rather sit in the forums crying about content being too hard but god forbid you invest the time in bettering yourself.

[CNitsah]

Zepla was a hardcore raider, she also cleared DRS (last I watched her) while the fight was current, which is an achievement in itself. EW Asphodelos was casual, Abyssos was more hardcore mostly because of how front-loaded some of the fights were and how much the fights relied on everyone being consistent + p8s which was mad hard on release, and Anabaseios was dirt easy and also casual (except p10s which was a wall for PF cause god forbid they knew how to do bonds 3).

Just because you are terrible at the game doesn't mean there's something wrong with the content nor does it mean they have to cater to you specifically. Savage might not be low-end casual, those are Extremes but it is mid-core.

You rather sit in the forums crying about content being too hard but god forbid you invest the time in bettering yourself.

Did you actually read what I wrote. I mean, I'm just reporting what she said herself. She stopped raiding at a time and considered at that time she engaged with the game casually, and it's at that time she wanted to make a video on how bad the game was for casuals, just to realise by talking with casuals that even in that time, she did not engage casually with the game. The video became a video about midcore content. She was a hardcore player having big bias about what it means to be a casual player. Which is what I was trying to illustrate.

I never said anything about the quality of the content, never said it should cater to me, and never said that there was something wrong with it (except for its lack thereof), but that hardcore players tend to have heavy bias towards what's casual and what's not. You're a proof of that, you just called savage content casual. It's proof enough for any casual or midcore player you don't have any idea what it means to be a casual player...

Seriously, none of your answer to my post have anything to do with what I said. You seem to have a big problem with basic reading comprehension. There was two main point in my post that I repeated several times : being classified as content for hardcore, midcore or casual players is not limited to difficulty and how hardcore players had a biased vision on what was casual and midcore players. Yet you still managed to miss them both. Talk about answering to an argument made up in your head.

[ArcZ]

Do I wish this happened ?
Yes

Is it a good idea ?
No

Hardcore player base will soon be the only thing keeping this game alive as all casual and midcore players will move to greener pastures found in other games.

[Volgia]

To me this thread is kind of wild. Midcore content are Extremes and Savages, everything else is incredibly casual. The MSQ, the solo instances, Deep Dungeons, Bozja, Eureka, 24 man raids, crafting and housing all can be done at your own pace without any limit on knowing how to play the game on a decent level.

Ultimates are the only thing I consider hardcore in this game. Ultimates, parsing and speedrunning savage content. It requires you to invest deep into group composition (though with the simplification of jobs that's not a big deal) and into knowing how to play the game as perfectly as you can.

[Jeeqbit]

They didnt remove Relic Content in Favor of Criterion, they did it because people keep complaining about the grind

Exactly this. It seems a lot of people do not understand that SE was actually responding to feedback, including on these very forums, that the relics made them grind things they didn't want to, or that they were too grindy, or that getting them for all jobs is too grindy. Because everyone's split. So they made it possible to "choose your content" (ie. hunt trains) and to get it for all jobs easily, in response to feedback.

But in reality that devastated a piece of content that gave a lot of people enjoyable things to do other than raiding.

I think the better solution is simply not making achievements for getting relic weapons, then less people will feel the need to get all of them so they can just focus on making 1 of them really grindy and take you through lots of content in the field op.

[CVXIV]

Exactly this. It seems a lot of people do not understand that SE was actually responding to feedback, including on these very forums, that the relics made them grind things they didn't want to, or that they were too grindy, or that getting them for all jobs is too grindy. Because everyone's split. So they made it possible to "choose your content" (ie. hunt trains) and to get it for all jobs easily, in response to feedback.

But in reality that devastated a piece of content that gave a lot of people enjoyable things to do other than raiding.

I think the better solution is simply not making achievements for getting relic weapons, then less people will feel the need to get all of them so they can just focus on making 1 of them really grindy and take you through lots of content in the field op.

Why should they remove achievements from something considered an achievement in and of itself? These are meant to be legendary weapons, and removing the achievement aspect sort of kills that accomplishment. That, and once the relics are outdated then really what's the point of getting them if not for glamour?

If people feel inclined to get all of them, then that's purely on the player and not on the system.

Relics are fine, if anything they should make the first one grindy and then make subsequent weapons easier something akin to what they did in Shadowbringers where you skipped certain steps

Honestly those relics would have been fine had they not had certain steps behind either doing delubrum reginae or rare drops from palace of the dead which seems to be the most contentious step