Pictomancer Appreciation Post

[HikariKurosawa]

Nobody is, people are saying don’t ruin PCT’s design because it just works better in this game than classes that have static rotations, nerf its potency sure but don’t change it

The person I responded to was asking for dragoon to be changed too in another thread, then in this thread they criticized black mage and summoner's job design for having static rotations.

I get wanting new jobs to have a different formula, but I think it is important to push back against people asking for them to change existing jobs into less static. Static =/= bad if it is complicated and engaging enough, which most if not all static jobs are in this game.

Even summoner's difficulty is extremely understated in this community. It is good that the game has something that is relatively straightforward, almost everything else is extremely complicated. Most longterm players are absolutely out of touch with how complicated jobs are in this game because it's almost all muscle memory to them.

[Supersnow845]

The person I responded to was asking for dragoon to be changed too in another thread, then in this thread they criticized black mage and summoner's job design for having static rotations.

I get wanting new jobs to have a different formula, but I think it is important to push back against people asking for them to change existing jobs into less static. Static =/= bad if it is complicated and engaging enough, which most if not all static jobs are in this game.

Even summoner's difficulty is extremely understated in this community. It is good that the game has something that is relatively straightforward, almost everything else is extremely complicated. Most longterm players are absolutely out of touch with how complicated jobs are in this game because it's almost all muscle memory to them.

The thing is the modern jobs sans PCT ARE stale because they all follow the same formula and they all have the same downsides and upsides in the same design space and that’s why PCT dominates in a downtime fight

Again ignoring PCT every single job in this game is

1) builder spender- we have no sustained jobs (BLM and VPR aren’t sustained anymore they are just builder spenders with bad bursts, no rampers, no DOT’ers and no buffers
2) hates downtime but has some form of partial mitigation for it
3) only works to its design intention on single target 100% uptime fights
4) has upwards of 90% of their rotation be completely static

A static rotation isn’t necessarily bad but the modern job design is severely hampering the ability for jobs to break to mold. Even in these PCT threads after years of the same stale mush PCT finally does something different and the most common suggestion to fix it is “motifs only with a target” which turns it into the same “only works during full uptime one target” mush the other jobs already are.

If we have to break the old jobs to get some form of job diversity back I’ll take it

[HikariKurosawa]

The thing is the modern jobs sans PCT ARE stale because they all follow the same formula and they all have the same downsides and upsides in the same design space and that’s why PCT dominates in a downtime fight

Again ignoring PCT every single job in this game is

1) builder spender- we have no sustained jobs (BLM and VPR aren’t sustained anymore they are just builder spenders with bad bursts, no rampers, no DOT’ers and no buffers
2) hates downtime but has some form of partial mitigation for it
3) only works to its design intention on single target 100% uptime fights
4) has upwards of 90% of their rotation be completely static

A static rotation isn’t necessarily bad but the modern job design is severely hampering the ability for jobs to break to mold. Even in these PCT threads after years of the same stale mush PCT finally does something different and the most common suggestion to fix it is “motifs only with a target” which turns it into the same “only works during full uptime one target” mush the other jobs already are.

If we have to break the old jobs to get some form of job diversity back I’ll take it

I don't agree that jobs are even remotely similar in this game so I can't really respond to that. I understand that pct is overtuned for downtime, and yeah it probably should just be nerfed to need a target to draw motifs. Logic would be "lacking artistic inspiration"/"inspired by their enemies".

There is just nothing wrong with jobs being static rotations mostly. It makes the game more balanced and is why jobs are so well balanced in this game for the most part.

[Supersnow845]

I don't agree that jobs are even remotely similar in this game so I can't really respond to that. I understand that pct is overtuned for downtime, and yeah it probably should just be nerfed to need a target to draw motifs. Logic would be "lacking artistic inspiration"/"inspired by their enemies".

There is just nothing wrong with jobs being static rotations mostly. It makes the game more balanced and is why jobs are so well balanced in this game for the most part.

So I’m confused. We shouldn’t be saying that the old jobs should be changed because some of us think they are stale and locked into limited job design but because of the imbalance the solution to is to……..take away what makes PCT unique. Making the motifs need targets would completely ruin PCT at every level of play

If you like static rotations that’s fine but same as you not liking people using PCT as an excuse to change the legacy jobs the legacy jobs aren’t an excuse to change PCT

[HikariKurosawa]

So I’m confused. We shouldn’t be saying that the old jobs should be changed because some of us think they are stale and locked into limited job design but because of the imbalance the solution to is to……..take away what makes PCT unique. Making the motifs need targets would completely ruin PCT at every level of play

If you like static rotations that’s fine but same as you not liking people using PCT as an excuse to change the legacy jobs the legacy jobs aren’t an excuse to change PCT

If what makes PCT unique makes it break the game then unfortunately it's not congruent with good game design.

The person I responded to wanted to make dragoon have jump GCDs that made the job invulnerable to damage during the animation. Very unique but also absolutely broken. Or we can give paladin a manual block button and it can mitigate everything when you press "raise shield" at the right time. That's unique right so it must be good?

PCT is plenty unique regardless of whether you can paint motifs without a target or not. Just like every other job in this game. Getting a little tired of listening to people say homogenization is an issue in this game. It's like a buzz word they use to gaslight the devs.

I'd like to see you make a thread where you specifically explain how jobs are homogenized in this game with real examples and clear reasoning. It's good that the devs know better than to be gaslit though, because it's really immature how this community tries to get their way. If you like jobs playing like WoW classes, that game exists. Go play WoW.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

The person I responded to was asking for dragoon to be changed too in another thread, then in this thread they criticized black mage and summoner's job design for having static rotations.

I get wanting new jobs to have a different formula, but I think it is important to push back against people asking for them to change existing jobs into less static. Static =/= bad if it is complicated and engaging enough, which most if not all static jobs are in this game.

Even summoner's difficulty is extremely understated in this community. It is good that the game has something that is relatively straightforward, almost everything else is extremely complicated. Most longterm players are absolutely out of touch with how complicated jobs are in this game because it's almost all muscle memory to them.

It's funny you say when that is what happened to old smn...smn was changed bc ppl complained about how it was a "real" ff summoner and how it was too hard all the time. So what did the devs do? They completely reworked into baby's first job and ripped all the fun out of the job for those who main it for years! SMN now is a shell of itself and it rework left players like myself with no job to play for a whole expac...All EW I had to give up my fav role bc of the smn rework and I don't think that's very fair at all.

There is nothing wrong with jobs being static but taking an already existing job and reworking it into one like they did with smn was wrong. If they wanted to make a straightforward job for beginners then make a new job, don't turn one that already had a fan base into one... In fact, instead of having blu mage being a useless limited job, turn it into beginner-friendly caster...and revert smn back to what it once was.

[HikariKurosawa]

It's funny you say when that is what happened to old smn...smn was changed bc ppl complained about how it was a "real" ff summoner and how it was too hard all the time. So what did the devs do? They completely reworked into baby's first job and ripped all the fun out of the job for those who main it for years! SMN now is a shell of itself and it rework left players like myself with no job to play for a whole expac...All EW I had to give up my fav role bc of the smn rework and I don't think that's very fair at all.

There is nothing wrong with jobs being static but taking an already existing job and reworking it into one like they did with smn was wrong. If they wanted to make a straightforward job for beginners then make a new job, don't turn one that already had a fan base into one... In fact, instead of having blu mage being a useless limited job, turn it into beginner-friendly caster...and revert smn back to what it once was.

I think summoner being reworked was actually a good thing. I wasn't around for the summoner before rework but I've watched videos on its gameplay and it was not what I would call a final fantasy summoner. What we have now is iconic and clearly a summoner.

What I hope they do, is make something like green mage that brings back the dot based gameplay for people who enjoy managing dots. Managing dots is not the identity of a final fantasy summoner though, and the game desperately needed something that was more approachable.

I agree with you though, they should be extremely careful about changing existing jobs. It's better to implement new jobs for new ideas rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater just to appease people who are unhappy with what currently exists.

[Carighan]

I agree with you though, they should be extremely careful about changing existing jobs. It's better to implement new jobs for new ideas rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater just to appease people who are unhappy with what currently exists.

This is going to be tricky, considering that all but ~3 current jobs (Red Mage, Picto, Summoner) have massive and deep, underlying, conceptual issues. Their gameplay in button presses might be alright, but the job you control via those is entirely unusable from a balancing POV and more or less needs to be ripped out and re-implemented. And even those three are only superficially okay, except, as you say, Summoner. Which conveys their job fantasy extremely well, it just needs "more". Mostly more summons that aren't Bahamut-From-Wish.

[MrJPtheAssassin]

I think summoner being reworked was actually a good thing. I wasn't around for the summoner before rework but I've watched videos on its gameplay and it was not what I would call a final fantasy summoner. What we have now is iconic and clearly a summoner.

What I hope they do, is make something like green mage that brings back the dot based gameplay for people who enjoy managing dots. Managing dots is not the identity of a final fantasy summoner though, and the game desperately needed something that was more approachable.

I agree with you though, they should be extremely careful about changing existing jobs. It's better to implement new jobs for new ideas rather than throwing the baby out with the bathwater just to appease people who are unhappy with what currently exists.

The rework may be a good thing but the way they did the rework wasn't. They reworked smn and have it fit the "ff summoner" idea ppl had sure but that is all they did to the job, There is nothing interesting about smn other than "press button, see light show happen.' Its rotation is the easiest and most boring one in the game and it as has the depth of a kiddy pool. Sure ppl like you may be happy with it being that way but my point was is that it cost players like myself a job. I went a whole expac with nothing I really liked playing bc the devs decided to delete the one I loved. I went to rpr to raid in 6.0 but I didn't LOVE rpr, it was ok job, and had some fun with but not the same fun I had with SB and ShB smn. That was my baby, that was the job I spent years mastering and getting good at and now its gone just so ppl could have their pretty little lights and they summons that don't do anything but jump on screen for few secs to do an animation and leave. They even made carbuce useless and I never forgive them to making my lil guy a minion.

[Carighan]

The rework may be a good thing but the way they did the rework wasn't. They reworked smn and have it fit the "ff summoner" idea ppl had sure but that is all they did to the job, There is nothing interesting about smn other than "press button, see light show happen.' Its rotation is the easiest and most boring one in the game and it as has the depth of a kiddy pool. Sure ppl like you may be happy with it being that way but my point was is that it cost players like myself a job. I went a whole expac with nothing I really liked playing bc the devs decided to delete the one I loved. I went to rpr to raid in 6.0 but I didn't LOVE rpr, it was ok job, and had some fun with but not the same fun I had with SB and ShB smn. That was my baby, that was the job I spent years mastering and getting good at and now its gone just so ppl could have their pretty little lights and they summons that don't do anything but jump on screen for few secs to do an animation and leave. They even made carbuce useless and I never forgive them to making my lil guy a minion.

Yeah although it's conceptually so close to working well mechanically. We got a bunch of buttons each minor summon can override, they just need to not be different variants of "just nuke", rather I'd sort them as:

* One is slow casts (3.0s-3.5s) with high damage (the only one that keeps the DPS level of the major summons).
* One is all instant casts but low damage, this summon emphasizes mobility.
* One is fast (1.5s) casts but medium damage, this one always has some form of utility.

Then have at least two summons per "slot" and make them work differently mechanically albeit sharing the role. Maybe Leviation instead of Ifrit always has line AoEs (and hence no separate AoE button), etc. Then a few seconds before the major summon ends the minor summons "fill up", and you can see the selection you randomly get. As each one works differently mechanically but shares the role, you got an assured combat performance, but not an assured combat gameplay. You got to react to that.

And this'd all be done with +3 summons (something everyone wants anyways) and a bunch of ability swaps and potency changes, no major reimplementation. Oh and removal of fake sword bahamut, because it should have never existed in the first place.