7.0 Graphic Update - Female Roegadyn Face 2 feedback

[azaleai]

Hi, professional roe face 2 whiner checking in.

I've made a lot of posts about this in various places but I think it's worth collating my complaints here.

I'm a 3D artist for games; I work with models and textures just like this for a living. And I can say for certain that there are severe issues with the normal map (the texture that simulates 3D shapes for the lighting to react to) for face 2.

The most egregious in my opinion is the complete erasure of the brow creases. It's a defining characteristic of the face that used to be a part of both the normal and the diffuse (colour) maps, but is now solely on the diffuse. This means the creases do not react to light, they do not have any manner of ambient occlusion (stronger shadows) compared to the previous iteration of this face, they cannot catch the light like they used to. Putting this detail only on the diffuse ends up looking plasticy and fake - like super strong cheekbone contour on a very round cheek; looks okay from one angle, but the illusion falls apart if look look at it any other way.


Both 7.0 screenshots. The lighting shadows (green) are seen crossing over the faux brow shadows (purple) without interacting with them. No highlights are visible surrounding any of the creases.

It's most apparent with the first crease due to that part of the face catching more light, but only the one crease closest to the eye (though greatly reduced) and the actual fold of the eyelid have been left intact on the normals. The creases catching the light on the 6.X face is apparent in Enforcing's image. This is no longer possible to recreate because of the removal of the normal map detail.

As part of this, the crease between the forehead and the nose is gone, making it look as if the forehead just funnels down into the nose. Additionally, they've made the incredibly bizarre choice to cave the brow inwards above the eyebrow as if the eyesocket begins half way up the forehead. In 90% of lighting situations, this just makes it look as if the character has black eyes. Not black coloured eyes, I mean 'got in a fist-fight and lost' or 'recovering from a broken nose' type black eyes. The impression of the underlying bone and muscle structure is completely ruined. This is the source of the haughty/snooty look some people feel the face has developed.


Comparison of the implied facial structure - 6.X (left) has a very defined brow ridge in line with the eyebrows, where as 7.0 (right) has a lifted soft brow ridge that does not align with the eyebrows. Also note in the 6.X screenshot the very defined shadow/highlight difference between the bottom of the forehead between the brows and the top of the nose.

The above diagram also illustrates my final complaint with the normals - The lips on the normal map and the diffuse don't match up, and the philtrum does not meet the peaks of the cupid's bow. The normal map has the upper lip incredibly flat, while the diffuse is very shapely. The peaks of the cupid's bow exceed the implied shape of the lips from the normals, giving it the appearance of poorly applied lipstick. Lip colour tends to fade before meeting the physical edge of the lip, not after.


Benchmark screenshot, but unchanged in the 7.0 release. Normal map highlighted in purple, diffuse map highlighted in orange, and an overlay of both.

Overall, the structure ends up being uncanny and makes no biological sense, completely antithetical to the update's attempt to make the graphics more realistic.

And of course, all of this is on top of the ash mark being faded. The textures making darker skintones look muddy and mottled. The overtuned shadow at the top of the eye making us look dead inside. The mouth shape being flattened and the rigging being changed to make emotes look awkward.

I think they completely and utterly dropped the ball with this face. I don't buy that there was an artist who looked at this face and decided they were proud of it as it is. It feels as if it's using placeholder textures. Or as if it was simply done by an AI that doesn't understand that Roegadyn brows are unlike human brows and just smoothed it all out. Or both.

And hey, just for fun. A quick little paintover of how I think it should have looked.
OG:


Paintover:


She looks a lot more like herself, huh?

[faiarrow]

Hello face 2 enjoyers.
I've recently posted again about it on the JP side of the forums for feedback so putting here as well (translated) to collate further.

Sorry to post something again.

I have posted before in this thread #175) but also bug reports（Eyes - Normal Maps - Nose Ash）and in the benchmark threads（#982 #1217 #1653）to provide feedback about this.

I wanted to post some more images for the issues I raised before, specifically with roegadyn face 2 and the race as a whole. The update has been great for the environments and its been fun to expore the new lighting and seeing updated monsters in the field. However, the character graphics were less than stellar with this face on hellsguard roegadyn.

General Points

• The character looks very different.
• The racial features are very soft and might as well not exist - ie. the nose ash needs to be darker (for hellsguard)
• Black pupils ruin the visual appeal of female roegadyn; face 2 for male roegadyn got to keep their coloured pupils while the female eyes all feel the same now, making their racial look change entirely
• The nose is a lot more rounded, losing the strong/bold shape it used to have

Female Face 2 Points

• No normal map for eyebrows - as you can see in the 2nd and 3rd images (smiling emotion) the shadow texture at the end of the eyebrows is missing 3D data, making it look like unfinished makeup.
• The normal map for the lips is a single curve, so if you're using thinner lips it looks like the lips are heavily overdrawn with lipstick

I'm sorry if this is harshly worded but... this is not the same character. Again, I don't think this was the intention of the tean whe the update was approved, but the homogenisation of the facial polygons has had a negative imact on non-hyuran races.

Additionally, the updated polygons make one expression super creepy. When using shocked the expression shifts her eyebrows and entire forehead up, making it look like she has a super long nose bridge.
(It's horrifying...）



Again I know we are the least played race. But, despite that, I respectfully request the team take another look and roegadyn and hellsguard graphics after the update.

Physically hurt to take those comparison caps last night but gods damnit I will keep fighting to see my character actually recognisable again.

[Anarnee]

Sure glad they ruined my characters' faces so we could enjoy the "improved" lighting... Oh wait, not only did they butcher the face, but the lighting is worst on dark skin too. You look like you're dipped in oil and waxy and you get less lips, different nose shape... AND the face is even more shadowed in most scenarios.

[OGSkaenryss]

Some solidarity here, finally. I'm tired of people trying to convince me that she looks better. I'm sad that these complaints reached no one. Fantasia is not a fix for years worth of playtime and backstory.

[Cai]

Completely agree on those descriptions. Increasingly upset with SE for undertaking the graphical update only to fail to accurately match the existing features when that was in my opinion the most important aspect of changing what has been since ARR dropped in 2013. It's possible to have had our characters for almost 11 years at this point and in a game where you're encouraged to play and fall in love with a single character, to the extent that gpose is one of its most popular features, it's a fair expectation from a player's standpoint that if they want to update the models then they should be as close to the originals as possible. The lips and eyes and the added roundness to the faces that wasn't there prior make the character feel foreign.

[OGSkaenryss]

Hey, I was coping by following your bug report earlier and just wanted to let you know that they are taking official feedback here: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/501798, and was wondering if you would be able to submit the translated post at all. I don't know Japanese but if there's anything I can do to help I will. Thanks!

Hi, professional roe face 2 whiner checking in.

I've made a lot of posts about this in various places but I think it's worth collating my complaints here.

I'm a 3D artist for games; I work with models and textures just like this for a living. And I can say for certain that there are severe issues with the normal map (the texture that simulates 3D shapes for the lighting to react to) for face 2.

The most egregious in my opinion is the complete erasure of the brow creases. It's a defining characteristic of the face that used to be a part of both the normal and the diffuse (colour) maps, but is now solely on the diffuse. This means the creases do not react to light, they do not have any manner of ambient occlusion (stronger shadows) compared to the previous iteration of this face, they cannot catch the light like they used to. Putting this detail only on the diffuse ends up looking plasticy and fake - like super strong cheekbone contour on a very round cheek; looks okay from one angle, but the illusion falls apart if look look at it any other way.


Both 7.0 screenshots. The lighting shadows (green) are seen crossing over the faux brow shadows (purple) without interacting with them. No highlights are visible surrounding any of the creases.

It's most apparent with the first crease due to that part of the face catching more light, but only the one crease closest to the eye (though greatly reduced) and the actual fold of the eyelid have been left intact on the normals. The creases catching the light on the 6.X face is apparent in Enforcing's image. This is no longer possible to recreate because of the removal of the normal map detail.


As part of this, the crease between the forehead and the nose is gone, making it look as if the forehead just funnels down into the nose. Additionally, they've made the incredibly bizarre choice to cave the brow inwards above the eyebrow as if the eyesocket begins half way up the forehead. In 90% of lighting situations, this just makes it look as if the character has black eyes. Not black coloured eyes, I mean 'got in a fist-fight and lost' or 'recovering from a broken nose' type black eyes. The impression of the underlying bone and muscle structure is completely ruined. This is the source of the haughty/snooty look some people feel the face has developed.

[Anarnee]

こんにちは、お読みいただきありがとうございます。翻訳に問題があったことをお詫びします。

グラフィックや機能のアップグレードに費やされた努力には感謝していますが、私のキャラクターモデルの顔は未完成のようで、より残忍で女性らしくない印象を与えています。



優先順位をつけるとすれば、目元と唇のメッシュの問題だろう。

ルガディン2号の顔には、影のにじみにいくつかの問題がある。目の部分が非常に目立ちます。カットシーンでは、目の半分以上が黒くなっていることがあります。瞳孔が大きく暗くなったため、影に溶け込み、虹彩の下半分だけが見えているような錯覚を与える。これはまた、顔全体に退屈している、あるいは無関心な印象を与える。




眉の影が照明に反応しなくなり、眉が上向きにカーブすることもなくなった。代わりに、眉は下向きのラインで描かれている。アイラインは黒一色になり、まぶたの輪郭は失われている。

鼻先と鼻孔のカーブは、様々な照明条件下でより広く見えるように修正されている。

上唇はへこみ、第2のリップラインがあり、新しい上唇はキューピッドの弓がその第2のラインの上にくるように先細りになっている。下唇は色が濃く、幅が広くなり、元の唇の輪郭を完全に変えている。




私はこのゲームが大好きで、このキャラクターモデルにとても愛着があります。こだわりが強すぎたらごめんなさい。私たちのフィードバックをお読みいただき、ありがとうございます。

If ya'll have time please go upvote Skaenryss' post in the JP thread. Click the two arrows next to their name and it should take you directly there.

[Anarnee]

Just wanted to bring some of the feedback from Faia from another thread over here.

We're heading in the right direction — the adjustments to the sculptures alone has brought a lot of recognition to femroe again, and while I do want to see hellsguard nose marks/smudges/rhinariums darkened further again they at least look less like a weird shadow.





All we need now is our coloured pupils back and some normal map adjustments. We just got a NPC in the raid series who has coloured pupils, they're still available on some of the M!roe, F!highlander, and F!elezen faces, it can be done and would make the whole look much more polished.

I'm incredibly grateful and lucky, honestly, given other feedback since 7.1 for other races so far, to have Sko & Wyta mostly back, and while the developers are receptive to it we must keep giving feedback.

(I've, as usual, been mostly lurking JP side and giving feedback there. Seems to have done something given our small playerbase.)

VERY happy they fixed the philtrum, it did wonders for the face, and some of the lighting changes make the nose less bad but I am still hoping that we get some more changes to the nose and most of all the EYES. The black pupils make every expression look really uncanny, especially when the characters squint.

[IndraSyngiwyb]

VERY happy they fixed the philtrum, it did wonders for the face, and some of the lighting changes make the nose less bad but I am still hoping that we get some more changes to the nose and most of all the EYES. The black pupils make every expression look really uncanny, especially when the characters squint.

Honestly, I agree. If they'd fix the eyes, it would solve at least a good 80% of the issues I have with the new face. I don't LIKE the changes to the lip shape or the way the Hellsguard nose smudge has been lightened to the point of vanishing, but I could at least deal with those if the eyes didn't look so awful. So much personality is shown through the eyes, so when you completely change them, you can't have the same character.

[Anarnee]

Honestly, I agree. If they'd fix the eyes, it would solve at least a good 80% of the issues I have with the new face. I don't LIKE the changes to the lip shape or the way the Hellsguard nose smudge has been lightened to the point of vanishing, but I could at least deal with those if the eyes didn't look so awful. So much personality is shown through the eyes, so when you completely change them, you can't have the same character.

Yeah! The new lips are not great, but without the mismatched philtrum they don't look so bad, the nose shape tends to warp strangely and bulge for certain expressions, and that does bother me in some cutscenes, but the eyes bother me in every one adventurer plates, and when I try to get screenshots to compare. I didn't like them in the benchmark, but since you can't test expressions it didn't really show how bad they would look when you want to do different expressions.