Garuda Weapons are weaker than Mog!!

[Rydin]

Most people know slightly lower tp a hit but more overall hits = more TP gain in the long run =\

Yea... it CAN depend on the situation though... for instance... on Morbol with MNK, TP is NEVER the thing holding you back.... Its hate and cooldowns... in which case a faster delay does nothing for you

[Lux_Rayna]

Yea... it CAN depend on the situation though... for instance... on Morbol with MNK, TP is NEVER the thing holding you back.... Its hate and cooldowns... in which case a faster delay does nothing for you

Right..it only gives you more AA dps when you're not using Weaponskills. Completely useless, owait.

It only gives you an extra 25 acc whereas ifrit gives none. Compeltely useless...owait.

It only gives you an extra 40 att power...completely useless...owait.

[Rydin]

Right..it only gives you more AA dps when you're not using Weaponskills. Completely useless, owait.

It only gives you an extra 25 acc whereas ifrit gives none. Compeltely useless...owait.

Monks don't miss on Morbol, ACC = waste on MNK Morbol

It only gives you an extra 40 att power...completely useless...owait.

It is when it has less Base Damage.... You should know that
Im not saying it would never be useful
I even used the word "Situational"

[Frein]

i only take issue with min/max dorks (not all min/maxers btw, just the elitist wannabes, no youre not and cant be an elitist , youre playing a game) who post worthless crap like "garuda weapons are garbage " more like what you said is garbage

What's your problem? I can't call them garbage even though they're almost certainly just that? Please drop the obession with political correctness and beating around the bush. It serves nobody.

Right..it only gives you more AA dps when you're not using Weaponskills. Completely useless, owait.

It only gives you an extra 25 acc whereas ifrit gives none. Compeltely useless...owait.

It only gives you an extra 40 att power...completely useless...owait.

They probably do give extra AA damage, but 1) AA damage is only a small part of your total damage output and 2) your stat caps are lower, so if the rest of your gear is really good you may even lose AA damage using these.

Personally, I doubt these would touch Ifrit's even if they didn't lower your stat caps because WS produce most of your damage and they don't care about delay one bit.

[Lux_Rayna]

What's your problem? I can't call them garbage even though they're almost certainly just that? Please drop the obession with political correctness and beating around the bush. It serves nobody.


They probably do give extra AA damage, but 1) AA damage is only a small part of your total damage output and 2) your stat caps are lower, so if the rest of your gear is really good you may even lose AA damage using these.

Personally, I doubt these would touch Ifrit's even if they didn't lower your stat caps because WS produce most of your damage and they don't care about delay one bit.

You have multiple stats for a reason. So what if your stat cap is lowered, you can then pump up another related stat. For instance if my STR cap is lowered thanks to Garuda, I can give some much needed love to my attack stat. If that cap is lowered (im not sure if those stats lower), then I can give much needed love to my crit attack stat until that hits some cap.

This is what I mean by thinking outside the box. You forget other game elements exist because you've narrowed down your focus to a very very very small range of numbers. In this way, Garuda can easily balance with Ifrit weapons...well in theory anyway. It depends how much the stat caps lower, and by how much that actually affects your dmg output. In the end to call them trash is probably a gross exaggeration. You, as a player, have to learn to adapt to different styles.

For this reason I say the dev team is smarter than all of us. They know the intricacies of the game and how different stat combinations work out, combinations we havent even really studied or tested yet!! How can you say then, with such conviction, that Garuda weapons aren't even viable. Obviously dev team takes something into account that you don't. Instead of blinding yourself, try expanding your knowledge, remaining open-minded, and testing the millions of other possibilities out there.

[Frein]

You have multiple stats for a reason. So what if your stat cap is lowered, you can then pump up another related stat. For instance if my STR cap is lowered thanks to Garuda, I can give some much needed love to my attack stat. If that cap is lowered (im not sure if those stats lower), then I can give much needed love to my crit attack stat until that hits some cap.

This is what I mean by thinking outside the box. You forget other game elements exist because you've narrowed down your focus to a very very very small range of numbers. In this way, Garuda can easily balance with Ifrit weapons...well in theory anyway. It depends how much the stat caps lower, and by how much that actually affects your dmg output. In the end to call them trash is probably a gross exaggeration. You, as a player, have to learn to adapt to different styles.

For this reason I say the dev team is smarter than all of us. They know the intricacies of the game and how different stat combinations work out, combinations we havent even really studied or tested yet!! How can you say then, with such conviction, that Garuda weapons aren't even viable. Obviously dev team takes something into account that you don't. Instead of blinding yourself, try expanding your knowledge, remaining open-minded, and testing the millions of other possibilities out there.

These stats have already been tested. Most classes only have two attributes that affect damage and they're STR and whatever seconday stat the class uses. Both are capped (for WS, AA caps even earlier) at IIRC roughly ~350 and ~310 respectively when using Ifrit's weapons. Both caps are very reachable simultaneously, after which you'll have to focus on other, less effective, stats like attack power, or even worse, crit power/rate. The catch is, of course, that those stats are less effective, so your plan to circumvent the stat caps by loading up on ATK isn't going to produce the desired result of giving equal performance.

I don't need to test every gear set separately to draw reasonable conclusions because the individual stats the items are comprised of have been tested.

[Lux_Rayna]

I don't need to test every gear set separately to draw reasonable conclusions because the individual stats the items are comprised of have been tested.

I'm going to be honest, ive yet to see a truly comprehensive test of all stats and stat combinations. I've seen tests wehre someone raised str a lot, took notes, raised att a lot, took notes....but these kinds of tests can't really be used in the way everyone is trying to use them. They are flawed in that they

1) dont take into account individual class strengths/weaknesses/skills/etc

2) dont attempt to create a coherent gear setup that emphasies a combination of the stats in question

3) limited parser data on generally one mob, or a small set of mobs

These tests were designed, least all the tests ive seen, to find caps. That is all. For example, ive yet to see a crit rate/crit att power build as compared to a pure att power build on say..a DRG. This is what I mean by incomplete testing. I am not disputing numbers with you, I am disputing that what you are arguing against has never been tested. Low delay with different builds has never been tested in comparison to other builds. You are taking a test out of context and trying to force it to apply to everything. You can only apply a test to what it was designed for.

Math and science do not operate the way you are trying to operate. If this was a scientific community, your reasoning woudl be labeled highly flawed. And it is. I'll repeat for like the 20th time, the dev team is aware of certain things that you are not. Instead of accepting this, and looking for where your knowledge could be lacking, you cling to now-dated tests that don't even test the thing you are arguing against.

As far as the validity of Garuda weapons go, you dont really have a case until its tested, and tested properly.

[Firon]

I'm going to be honest, ive yet to see a truly comprehensive test of all stats and stat combinations. I've seen tests wehre someone raised str a lot, took notes, raised att a lot, took notes....but these kinds of tests can't really be used in the way everyone is trying to use them. They are flawed in that they

1) dont take into account individual class strengths/weaknesses/skills/etc

2) dont attempt to create a coherent gear setup that emphasies a combination of the stats in question

3) limited parser data on generally one mob, or a small set of mobs

These tests were designed, least all the tests ive seen, to find caps. That is all. For example, ive yet to see a crit rate/crit att power build as compared to a pure att power build on say..a DRG. This is what I mean by incomplete testing. I am not disputing numbers with you, I am disputing that what you are arguing against has never been tested. Low delay with different builds has never been tested in comparison to other builds. You are taking a test out of context and trying to force it to apply to everything. You can only apply a test to what it was designed for.

Math and science do not operate the way you are trying to operate. If this was a scientific community, your reasoning woudl be labeled highly flawed. And it is. I'll repeat for like the 20th time, the dev team is aware of certain things that you are not. Instead of accepting this, and looking for where your knowledge could be lacking, you cling to now-dated tests that don't even test the thing you are arguing against.

As far as the validity of Garuda weapons go, you dont really have a case until its tested, and tested properly.

Read this that cry hit power on garuda claws wont help -.- http://kanican.livejournal.com/56489.html

[Frein]

These tests were designed, least all the tests ive seen, to find caps. That is all. For example, ive yet to see a crit rate/crit att power build as compared to a pure att power build on say..a DRG. This is what I mean by incomplete testing. I am not disputing numbers with you, I am disputing that what you are arguing against has never been tested. Low delay with different builds has never been tested in comparison to other builds. You are taking a test out of context and trying to force it to apply to everything. You can only apply a test to what it was designed for.

Against L45 enemies your crit rate increases by ~1% for every +30 Crit Rate you have and the base crit rate is ~11%. Against higher level enemies it's lower and it is also assumed the potency of +Crit Rate goes down as dLevel increases. Crit rate is capped at 20%.

This means adding +Crit Rate is very inefficient as far as the rate of criticals goes.

Crit damage has a floor of 115% and a ceiling of 175%. These are placed after the actual calculation for crit damage and the formula is affected by dLevel. Against a L50 enemy your critical damage is ~120% and by dLevel = 4, your crit damage has fallen below or roughly to the 115% floor. This means when dLevel > 5, the initial points of any Critical Potency on your gear are essentially wasted. When dLevel = 8 (Ifrit), you waste the first 56 points of +Crit Potency before you get any effect.

Math and science do not operate the way you are trying to operate. If this was a scientific community, your reasoning woudl be labeled highly flawed. And it is. I'll repeat for like the 20th time, the dev team is aware of certain things that you are not. Instead of accepting this, and looking for where your knowledge could be lacking, you cling to now-dated tests that don't even test the thing you are arguing against.

The dev team clearly isn't aware of how mages work and they still struggle to make gear that mages actually want to use. The end game darklight mage items suck and every primal CNJ/WHM drop has only offensive stats. It seems obvious that whoever designs this stuff has very limited understanding of the game mechanics involved. I don't need to test the Garuda, Ifrit and Moogle wands to realize that their effect on my cures and buffs is between zero and marginal.

If you want more detailed information about stats, I recommend you read this thread and the LJ posts by Kaeko you'll find there. He has a much better understanding of the actual math and testing methods, so you better ask him if you want to question the results.

[Fionlagh]

@ Frein hrmm... the "politcally correct" card, not surprised, goes pretty well with all the rest of your mentally lazy way of thinking.
its garbage to you, i get that, you're purely talking in the context of min/max, thats who you are, what you as a player only put value on.
youre a keyboard wizard, a dork , in game youre cool though, you use math lmao

you know what though, you win this arguement, solely based on the fact that your numbers are bigger than mine
we all know big numbers are cool, we all play to see those cool numbers on the screen