Job design mindset need to change

[mallleable]

It really is not too much of a red herring, at least not when you look into it in depth. The reasons we have this meta is a combination of the following elements:

1. The goal is to reduce the enemy HP to zero. Because of that, the more damage you do, the better.

And that's the crux of it, burst damage in games is really good at reducing HP bars to 0 -- like really really good at that. And that's why game designers gate burst damage behind things like low fire rates, limited ammo capacity, skill shots, charge up meters, cast times, cooldowns, etc. XIV isn't special in this regard. To me, the toothpaste is kind of out of the tube on this one.

[AmiableApkallu]

And that's the crux of it, burst damage in games is really good at reducing HP bars to 0 -- like really really good at that. And that's why game designers gate burst damage behind things like low fire rates, limited ammo capacity, skill shots, charge up meters, cast times, cooldowns, etc. XIV isn't special in this regard.

Except burst damage in FFXIV is... just that thing you do every X seconds. It's meaningless. You could get rid of all the 2min buffs, adjust the DPS check for the encounters accordingly (assuming there even is one), and you'd end up doing the exact same thing, sans one button.

The point of burst damage should be to kill something post haste, within seconds, not be that rote thing you do because there's a hard enrage 10min out.

[mallleable]

Except burst damage in FFXIV is... just that thing you do every X seconds. It's meaningless. You could get rid of all the 2min buffs, adjust the DPS check for the encounters accordingly (assuming there even is one), and you'd end up doing the exact same thing, sans one button.

The point of burst damage should be to kill something post haste, within seconds, not be that rote thing you do because there's a hard enrage 10min out.

Oh no, the shotgun/sniper rife/rocket launcher in my FPS game can only deal deal burst damage, and has a specific fire rate of x.xx seconds, FPS weapons are meaningless...

[AmiableApkallu]

Oh no, the shotgun/sniper rife/rocket launcher in my FPS game can only deal deal burst damage, and has a specific fire rate of x.xx seconds, FPS weapons are meaningless...

Imagine confusing FFXIV for a FPS game.

FFXIV's encounter design doesn't value burst damage in the slightest. There's no tactical thinking to when you should burst. There's no wondering whether you should hold your burst because a more valuable target might randomly appear in the near future. Just push your rotation like a mindless robot following a spreadsheet, and you're good to go. Such wow. Such amaze.

[mallleable]

Imagine confusing FFXIV for a FPS game.

FFXIV's encounter design doesn't value burst damage in the slightest. There's no tactical thinking to when you should burst. There's no wondering whether you should hold your burst because a more valuable target might randomly appear in the near future. Just push your rotation like a mindless robot following a spreadsheet, and you're good to go. Such wow. Such amaze.

I'm not confusing the two, I'm comparing the two in a sarcastic way to point out the absurdity of the claim that on repetitive burst damage is meaningless, and that the prevalence of burst damage is not just an XIV thing.

[AmiableApkallu]

I'm comparing the two in a sarcastic way to point out the absurdity of the claim that on repetitive burst damage is meaningless

Then might I suggest you provide an example in FFXIV that demonstrates the real value or interest to burst damage. Or an example of how some other game's use of burst damage might plausibly be adapted to FFXIV to make burst damage in FFXIV valuable and interesting.

[mallleable]

Then might I suggest you provide an example in FFXIV that demonstrates the real value or interest to burst damage. Or an example of how some other game's use of burst damage might plausibly be adapted to FFXIV to make burst damage in FFXIV valuable and interesting.

Literally any damage spell with a cast time. The reason why damage actions with cast times have higher potencies than actions without cast times actually has little to do with the movement restrictions, and more to do with the cast time itself. You exchange doing nothing for a moment for burst damage. Damage actions with cast times cannot be anything but burst damage. Figuring out when it is safe to peak, and Taking 3 seconds to scope in, charge up, and aim a lethal sniper shot is not to different than figuring out when it is safe to stand still, and take 3 seconds to cast a Motif to fire off a Living Muse on PCT. These caparisons are why I'm obsessed with giving BRD, and MCH to walking casts like they do in PVP because it feels like a translation of aiming mechanics seen in FPS games into FFXIV's GCD gameplay.

So, do you think the entire caster, both DPS, and healer gameplay style is not interesting, and has no value, do you-? Would you say Black Mage is not interesting, and has no value?

[ovIm]

And that's the crux of it, burst damage in games is really good at reducing HP bars to 0 -- like really really good at that. And that's why game designers gate burst damage behind things like low fire rates, limited ammo capacity, skill shots, charge up meters, cast times, cooldowns, etc. XIV isn't special in this regard. To me, the toothpaste is kind of out of the tube on this one.

There is more to my post than that tidbit.

while burst is effective, it is only especially crass and noticeable in this game because of the combination of very high potency nukes and multiplicative damage calculation. One could easily reduce the impact of these things without affecting kill times too much if we flatten the damage curve, increase the potency of filler and decrease the potency of the nukes. Make burst satisfying and impactful without devaluing the filler as much as it does now.

I'm not against burst, but understanding why the burst this game has changes the way classes are designed is key when considering possible alternatives.

[BabyYoda]

There is more to my post than that tidbit.

while burst is effective, it is only especially crass and noticeable in this game because of the combination of very high potency nukes and multiplicative damage calculation. One could easily reduce the impact of these things without affecting kill times too much if we flatten the damage curve, increase the potency of filler and decrease the potency of the nukes. Make burst satisfying and impactful without devaluing the filler as much as it does now.

I'm not against burst, but understanding why the burst this game has changes the way classes are designed is key when considering possible alternatives.

No one is against burst there are jobs that designed around it,
The problem it is a meta if job do not follow it it will be garbage,
BLM can't win against PCT until you gutted the job or it will be like that.

Raid Buffs being removed for 90% of jobs is a good start, and keep buffs with jobs like DNC and BRD and AST ONLY

[ovIm]

No one is against burst there are jobs that designed around it,
The problem it is a meta if job do not follow it it will be garbage,
BLM can't win against PCT until you gutted the job or it will be like that.

Raid Buffs being removed for 90% of jobs is a good start, and keep buffs with jobs like DNC and BRD and AST ONLY

I'm not against bursts either, truly. Bursts are good. I'm merely saying that currently, there is a very big emphasis on the bursts that does influence job design, and vice versa.