Job design mindset need to change

[Daralii]

Agreed. Though I'd say tanks need just as much attention, it's just easy to ignore because they have the barest semblance of a DPS rotation, but healers and tanks both have the exact same problem. The buster meta forces all tanks to have heavy mits, and all healers to have burst healing and anti-burst mits. Two halves of the exact same coin.

It's also another instance of incredibly uneven design and balancing. The mitigation's tuned to be just enough in ultimates, which means it's way too strong in everything below that.

[Asari5]

i think a warrior with lower defense but higher hitpoints and even more selfheal would work.

lower defensiv stats means he gets more dmg so he needs more hp to survive. but more hp means the healers have a harder time to heal him up. so the warrior has to help the healers often to heal himself up. sounds fine to me.

healers would have more work with lazy warriors but overall it would differentiate warrior from all the other tanks without changing too much

[Alice_Rivers]

I don't really care who does the most damage among tanks, or healers for that matter, it's secondary to the role. I care mostly about the relationship between tanks, healers and content - For me tanks should walk to line of having agency without crossing into self-sufficiency, content should demand healers fundamentally and tanks should, eventually, die in the absence of a healer. But it doesn't have to be obvious or instant, nor do I think tank or healer design while we have such small numbers of both jobs, should fit one template each, I aimed to provoke discussion of a variety of templates such that every job in a role might go about it's function in completely different ways.

I feel like I failed in that objective, but then I'm the first to admit I'm more analytical than creative.

[Daralii]

They ultimately just need to stop redesigning jobs to try and appeal to people that don't play them and will continue to not play them.

[Shougun]

In a general sense I agree but I would like to remove the rigidity even suggested, I don't mean that meanly either. Just that first we should aim for FUN THEME, or fun gameplay roleplay, and then we should do our best to make other jobs not be hot garbage in comparison. So yes there will be unique things, yes there may be bias in situations, but we're not trying to get you yelled at because you do 1/10 the damage of another job that is also the same role. This done without thinking strictly "I need 2 unique ideas" but just "what would be cool" like how mage in wow can teleport because why not, or druids can transform, use all roles, and travel by forest.

Some less combat based ideas on job identity: https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/492928

In other threads I've talked on combat suggestions as well and most recently I can think of the healers. Where healers will have some healing consolidated either in buttons or power, and then new skills added that thematically add combat value. So some healers will buff teammates in a support like role, while others will just straight rip and tear at the enemy. Like Sage has more, and more powerful, kardia offensive skills. Astrologian has many more team buffs, some card related but they don't all need to be. Scholar's fairy returns to Heavensward like styling (quite powerful auto healer) and they get many tactical style skills mixed of offensive and defensive. Y mage gets many ally target or no target skills, so many new buffs, but more damage spells that require no target (so they primarily target allies, their kit remains straight forward and logical digest).

Or when it all about limited jobs, when they were new especially, I suggested advanced jobs, and for all. Like in WoW hunter has a whole beast taming thing, they gave mage a ignore damage skill (that is better than blue mage's even lol), monk can delete monsters less than their total health, etc. so in our case blue mage has a normal kit but also has their world thing, painter can collect new motifs and art sets (ink painting vs watercolor), bard has tavern visiting mechanics using the mini games SE made already made, beast master can do both, etc.

Take the theme and make it king, with fun particularly paired with it, and THEN balance it (and others) where it has to be so other jobs don't feel like crap. Right now it feels like they first balance and then throw an art pass over the skills for them, almost any job could be repainted onto another job (emotionally how it feels).

PvP kits are too small so I'm not saying 'exactly' that, but I feel PvP has much better theme design than our normal kits.

Especially in context of WoW which I would give A to A plus on theme skill and FFXIV started at B and is moving to C-, D- if they continue what they're doing.

[mallleable]

While I agree that job design philosophy does need to change, I disagree with your points in that they are already kinda happening with certain splits within roles, and jobs only being situational will just lead to more player frustration.

Instead, I think jobs just need rules to them, rules that mechanically, and aesthetically make sense for each individual job. I think good recent example is with SAM, and how Tsubame-gaeishi has changed. It used to be that only Iajutsus used at a certain time would proc it, but now almost every cast Iajutsu procs Tsubame. The rule is now every cast weapon skill procs an instant version of itself, it's easy to understand, fun to execute, and affords points of optimization for players to chew on. A theoretical example of how this can change job design is with GNB, and Continuation. It could be made that when you unlock Continuation it unlocks the procs on all cartridge skills. The rule is that cartridge skills proc Continuation. This frees up the leveling slots at level 86, and 96 for other things, it moves gameplay elements to an earlier level, and it means that any future cartridge skills already has its Continuation proc unlocked freeing up design space for things other than Enhanced Continuation traits. A lot of knock on effects just by establishing a simple rule.

I think a problem with jobs now is that they lack these rules, and end up feeling like a mishmash of random mechanics that are in a just good enough, playable state.

[Nero-Voidstails]

the jobs should be balanced toward casual then make the harder fight balanced toward that not how it is today not gonna lie

[Bonoki]

I have been saying for years that Job Identity and Job Balance cannot coexist within the game design philosophy of FFXIV.

[MisterNublet]

Job design and job identity will never improve while the 2-min meta still exists.

[Inputnamehere]

The 2-min burst rule should be removed. Any fixed, timed burst limitation that applies to everyone shouldn't exist. As long as this isn't fixed, job designs, boss designs, most stuff in the future, will not have much room for improvement.

This is a PvE-mainly game, instead of being obsessed with balancing (not like they did it right anyway), they should allow players to find broken ways to play certain jobs. Even if a job turns out ”weak“ people will still play it as long as it's fun and *unique*. Nobody should care if a job is weak in casual content. As for difficult raids... Surely players should prepare multiple jobs if they are going that way, right?

And man I miss the job synergy in old games. Like the Astro cards, Mana Shift and such. Felt like you were actually helping the team. Now? The fights have nothing to do “team” anymore. Everybody just minds their own business until the fight is done or somebody messes up. You press fixed buttons at fixed time points, go to a selection of pre-defined spots at intervals. No flexibility. No surprises. If something goes boom you wouldn't even care because oh that must be someone went to a wrong spot, let's just go again.