Genuine Question about Job Homogeneity

[kajv95]

Oh, yeah. That said, the stomp is frequent enough that only RDM (Dualcast) and AST (Lightspeed) get to apply the Sleep way more consistently than anyone else.

Here's the thing though... I'm right, but you're also right. The turtle example is just of a handful (listed above) that can all be ignored or that don't really go deep enough with what you could do with content variety. The turtle here being an example of something that doesn't go deep enough. If the stomp was unavoidable and left some kind of debuff that carried over into the Final Boss, and the cast was a bit faster, you'd definitely have to always have a Sleep ready to avoid that.

Or dunno, am I entirely lost with this?

Spot-on, actually. Although any job can easily just cast more sleeps since red mage is sacrificing just as much as the other jobs would because it's GCD. Anyway...
The reason the content can't "be interesting" in this sense is because you cannot guarantee a tool is in the party unless everyone in a guaranteed role has it. For dungeons, this means you can really only center mechanics around tanking, healing and the fact there are two red roles. The nature of the modern MMO beast.

Now, job design and encounter design obviously influence one another - since you can't design for jobs that don't exist. And since every job right now is a 120s burst job with slight variations in the middle, you cannot have any jobs be better or worse than any other in any encounter. I think that was actually the goal - to make sure everyone is on equal grounds of sorts (which still isn't the case anyway) but ultimately it means that encounter design is locked into a very narrow corridor since cc basically doesn't work and can't be designed around and the damage of a group is so reliant on the burst window now that desyncing it might just cause a miss of the dps check.

So everyone is forced to play the same way for "balance", battles are forced to be designed very similarly as a result, and it all contributes to a feeling of same old, same old.

Adding onto this (edit, sorry): the job you play is effectively a lens for the content you play, so if the jobs aren't fulfilling, then no matter how thrilling an encounter might be, you're still going to feel rotten about it upon entering for reclears since the novelty of the new encounter wears off. Conversely, if the jobs are fulfilling, then even mediocre battles can be rather enjoyable because, well, you're having fun just pressing the buttons.

Also, while I'm editing this post, I respect you a lot for actually trying to figure out why people are feeling this way and having actual conversations about it. Cheers <3

[Jeeqbit]

I keep hearing people calling the jobs "too homogeneous" or that they're all "the same" and as much as I try... I just don't see it, at least not in the way people talk about it.

It depends largely on your hotbar setup, quite frankly. If you setup every job's hotbars different then it can feel different to you, because well, you're looking in different places to press buttons.

However, if you really go out of your way to setup your hotbar for each job similarly, you will start to notice things like:
GNB <-> PLD
DRK <-> WAR
SCH <-> SGE
MNK <-> SAM

But there are other factors only able to be noticed by old players. For example, WAR used to have a conal AoE which made it unique and required a degree of skill to aim correctly. This was removed. It was removed from some SAM actions as well, but not others - it's sort of inconsistent. RDM still has some conals.

Gap closers were not available to all melee jobs... now they are.

The animations of abilities like gap closers and stuns were more unique and to this day continue to erode and act the same. Like DRG and DRK's iconic leaps.

It's common for jobs to have a two-part or three-part combo, but many jobs weren't that simple originally, and whatever system they had was streamlined into a clear "two-part" or "three-part" combo that highlights properly on the hotbar so that new players understand it.

Often, there were unique consequences or times when you used certain GCDs or Abilities. Over time, these just became simple Abilities that you weave without consequence or thought.

Typically, you had to do various things to "keep up" a buff or meter on yourself, and this was removed and made into a trait on almost all jobs except... BLM? Which still sees ice/fire expire and still wants to stand still a lot and still wants to keep into leylines. Others still have buffs that expire but they are a joke to keep up compared to BLM, which still has actual challenge to it despite the Dawntrail changes. BLM is really an example of the sort of thing every other job has lost.

So I think this is mostly what people mean. They don't feel entirely the same to me either, especially DPS jobs, but I see what people mean.

[DiaDeem]

Like I just took your train set and chucked it out the window and gave you a boat, and now you got to figure out how to use the boat.

lol I love that statement

Leeches (SCH) should operate differently than Esuna, even if it's just minor. Like Leeches will apply a buff lasting 30 seconds that every 10 seconds removes a debuff and grants a HoT each time, you can only have two leeches up at one time (last leech is the one to be moved, if you cast beyond 2 active leeches). Esuna instantly removes two debuffs, and if it crits removes them all.

I feel there's overlap here with the simplification of jobs. Why everyone has Esuna? Cause it's easy and simple to understand and everyone uses it the same. Like.. it makes sense, but I can see how it erodes Job identity.

I've been reading everyone's posts, and for the most part I think I understand where the sentiment that I didn't quite understand before comes from, but I'm also realizing a lot of it is not inherent to every Job's design and there's a lot of overlap with content design and job simplification.

Also, I'm just glad the thread hasn't devolved into degeneracy lol

The reason the content can't "be interesting" in this sense is because you cannot guarantee a tool is in the party unless everyone in a guaranteed role has it. For dungeons, this means you can really only center mechanics around tanking, healing and the fact there are two red roles. The nature of the modern MMO beast.

We were just in Amdapor (Hard) and the tank didn't know you can pull ads into the light shafts to debuff them.

This thread is making me realize how much I miss ARR/HW-era dungeon design...

I can tell you how to map 50+% of your buttons if you want to play another healer.

Well, that's the thing though. I specifically do my bars so they resemble each other across jobs, because my brain remembers button combos better than it does spell lists, and even with this, I still really dislike SGE compared to my SCH. I think it's more about enjoying the job rather than being able to just play it, which admittedly isn't very hard to do for any of the jobs.

Writing this comment has also made me think of something: I play on controller, so now I'm starting to wonder how much that influences how I feel about Job diversity.

[ZephyrMenodora]

lol I love that statement



I feel there's overlap here with the simplification of jobs. Why everyone has Esuna? Cause it's easy and simple to understand and everyone uses it the same. Like.. it makes sense, but I can see how it erodes identity.
.

Not exactly relevant, but I do NOT miss the days where Scholar had levels where they didn't have Leeches but WHM had Esuna. Was annoying since ARR had more poisons and other things you could Esuna and it was quite awkward at the time having no cleanse for certain levels.

[NegativeS]

On the same breath though, do you understand where I'm coming from when I say I find way more fun to use Aetherflow and Recitation over the entire Eukrasia mechanic? Same thing with my Mudras when compared to the Monk Chakras, which clearly are different enough to have some people here have the entire opposite opinion around NIN/MNK that I have.

I guess I wanna follow up with this question: Do you think all jobs suffer the same from the issue you described above? Or do you think some would be fine for you with just a handful of tweaks or more content that was tailor made to use their kits? Or do you really think all of them are a lost cause?

And no, I don't think you're delusional. Turning my BS snark all the way off for this thread.

I will say that some roles (not jobs, roles) are better with uniqueness than others. Tank is abysmal in this regard--I don't think I could be convinced that they don't all play the same in their current state. Melee is next--could definitely be worse, but they all have 123 (with variation) combos, a DoT, and a gauge to fill for a capstone. Healers are next--like I said you can't really set a healer's rotation in stone, but there is little-to-no variation of their core kits (other than whether they give regen or a shield). rDPS comes after--unique within their role, and their utility sets them apart, but they all have some overlap with other jobs. Casters are last--they're all pretty unique, and honestly I don't have much of a problem with them.

I may have over-exaggerated a bit in the other thread when I said "kill ALL jobs", but I feel like something like that would need to be done if we are to distance ourselves from the 2-minute-meta downward spiral the devs seem to be caught in.

If they could incorporate the 2MM buffs in a smarter way, then I think DoM DPS would be in a good spot.
If they could give healers more of a varied core kit other than 'single target heal, single target heal with pizzazz, AOE heal, AOE heal with pizzazz', then I think healers would be in... well, a better spot.
If they could take a page out of Bard's book and give the other DoW rDPS something other than 123 combos (NOT SAYING TO COPY BARD), then I think rDPS would be in a good spot.

But melee and tank? Yeah, tear them down, gut them, reshape them in someone else's design philosophy.

Also,

I find way more fun to use Aetherflow and Recitation over the entire Eukrasia mechanic?

Agreed. I love Scholar. Hate Sage. Simple as.

[DiaDeem]

I will say that some roles (not jobs, roles) are better with uniqueness than others. Tank is abysmal in this regard--I don't think I could be convinced that they don't all play the same in their current state. Melee is next--could definitely be worse, but they all have 123 (with variation) combos, a DoT, and a gauge to fill for a capstone. Healers are next--like I said you can't really set a healer's rotation in stone, but there is little-to-no variation of their core kits (other than whether they give regen or a shield). rDPS comes after--unique within their role, and their utility sets them apart, but they all have some overlap with other jobs. Casters are last--they're all pretty unique, and honestly I don't have much of a problem with them.

I really appreciate this paragraph. I don't agree with everything (you can't make me play DRK and I really like GNB's combos) but I wholeheartedly understand where you're coming from now, which is what I really wanted with this thread.

Thanks again for taking the time to reply!

[Shougun]

Not exactly relevant, but I do NOT miss the days where Scholar had levels where they didn't have Leeches but WHM had Esuna. Was annoying since ARR had more poisons and other things you could Esuna and it was quite awkward at the time having no cleanse for certain levels.

One thought that might smooth something out, but still rid the role actions is that they start out role but upgrade for flavor.

So right away you start out with Cleansing Tonic, some basic first aid like vibe. This changes to leeches, esuna, etc. Rampart -> Shadow Skin, Phalanx, etc. This way you can maintain, when needed, the pacing so you don't hate your job on REQUIRED skills, and also the teaching factor DiaDeem pointed out. I cap REQUIRED because not all of them are really needed to be on the bar, in that case they can be slapped back into a job as flavor (and probably still not put on the bar, BUT could be handy in niche situations which adds to their flavor).

Also, LOL.. I remember Chimera / worm and stuff having fun while people were like "ESUNA ME ESUNA ME" and me being like "nah.. we don't do that".

[ZephyrMenodora]

One thought that might smooth something out, but still rid the role actions is that they start out role but upgrade for flavor.

So right away you start out with Cleansing Tonic, some basic first aid like vibe. This changes to leeches, esuna, etc. Rampart -> Shadow Skin, Phalanx, etc. This way you can maintain, when needed, the pacing so you don't hate your job on REQUIRED skills, and also the teaching factor DiaDeem pointed out. I cap REQUIRED because not all of them are really needed to be on the bar, in that case they can be slapped back into a job as flavor (and probably still not put on the bar, BUT could be handy in niche situations which adds to their flavor).

Also, LOL.. I remember Chimera / worm and stuff having fun while people were like "ESUNA ME ESUNA ME" and me being like "nah.. we don't do that".

I like this idea, and also the prior ideas about making them a little different.

I was just reading a complaint thread about Leeches since I wanted to double check that I have not gone insane and made up getting it later than CNJ/WHM, and I saw a comment that Whm's version also had a chance to cast another Esuna for free. While I don't really want another Freecast like this, it was just another difference between the classes at the time that made the same function just a tad different.

[DiaDeem]

Not exactly relevant, but I do NOT miss the days where Scholar had levels where they didn't have Leeches but WHM had Esuna. Was annoying since ARR had more poisons and other things you could Esuna and it was quite awkward at the time having no cleanse for certain levels.

Well, if you could shield someone, that'd eat the DoT you'd Esuna with the other job.

I definitely don't think the situation is a dire as some people do (I think that much is clear) but I do hope Yoshi and his team understand that a game for everyone is a game for no one. Not everything needs to be made overly convenient.

Also (this is kinda unrelated as well) but CLL, DR and Dalriada offer a lot in ways to help the party that aren't bound by the usual design for content, and it's a reason why I enjoy that content quite a bit. Do you have Death to save the hostages in CLL? Did someone bring Banish for the ghost in DR? Can we run all DPS with one tank if someone brings Cure IV? Stuff like that.

[Teno]

I agree with you. Some people on the Healer Strike claim all the healers are exactly the same, but I don't feel that way at all. I love White Mage, Scholar is Okay - and I just don't really like Sage or Ast. There are some overlapping abilities, just so you can perform your basic function, but there are a lot of small differences and tools that add up to a vastly different feel while playing.

I did chuckle that you love NIN and hate Monk. I love Monk and hate Ninja lol.

Play healer for more than 10 hours and see if you don't change your tune. If not, well some people like watching paint dry so to each their own I guess.....