Genuine Question about Job Homogeneity

[Valence]

EDIT: Oh, and we HAD to lose Nocturnal AST so SGE could exist because heaven's forfend we have 2.5 shield healers and 2 pure healers. Does this mean we'll get 2 healers in an expact so it isn't unbalanced? I highly, highly, highly doubt it.

What do you mean, they'll do exactly like they did for HW: they'll add a new healer that can shield and pure healer at the flip of a switch!

And it won't be AST so that SE can drink the tears of AST mains. That's how they usually alienate their vets.

[Mikey_R]

Seems like stretching here. My hotbars for the two are setup the same and there is barely a difference aside from GNB being more oGCD centric due to Continuation, and the Atonement combo on PLD.

...

Just because things are setup the same, doesn't mean they play the same, however, you also need to take into account that jobs do need certain tools in order to function. Tank defensives for example, Yes, they all have the same number, all with their own flavour (excluding Rampart), but they are used in the same way. But, how would you make them different? PLD can Holy Sheltron themselves and Intervention someone else in quick succession, GNB and WAR cannot do that. DRK can via Oblation but Intervention and Oblation also have different conditions on their use, Oblation being 2 charges at 60 seconds each and Intervention being on a 10 second cooldown, but being gated by the gauge, which will give enough every 22.4 seconds, as long as the PLD can auto attack. This is before we even talk about Intervention being stronger than Oblation, even before we take into account you can make it even stronger if you already have Rampart or Guardian up.

Even when tanks do get more unique things, it isn't liked. Dark Mind being useless against physical attacks? How often do you see it mentioned that it needs to have some sort of mitigation for physical attacks, the same for Heart of Light and Dark Missionary.

Going onto rotations, I already told you, in basic terms, why PLD and GNB are different in one aspect, but you blindly reject that difference just because you can put buttons in the same place, therefore, they are the same. To take this to an extreme, every job interacts with the GCD and oGCD, therefore they all play the same. In some aspect, that is true, but it misses the detail. Some GCDs have cooldowns, some oGCDs have charges, ok, some do damage, others do not, some proc others etc. As you look into the detail you can start to see how they are different. So the question is, why have you chosen to make criticisms at (what I consider) such a broad level.

But, I think the biggest thing is, how would you (or anyone else) change it? I often hear about how ARR/HW/SB done it better, but let's hear some examples. I played during that period, so I do have hands on experience and can relate (not so much for healers, weakest job role for me). I also don't want to hear the old excuse of, 'I'm not a game dev, they should be the ones doing this'. That helps nothing. You need examples, especially if you can point back to the past and say, this was better, because of X reason. Suggest how it could be better, for example, how would you change Sacred Soil and Kerachole so that they are different enough for you? By showing the kind of diversity you want, with more specific examples, it is easier to know what you are after, what you want. Just be aware that you need to keep in mind one thing. Every job has to be able to complete every piece of content. That is the only restriction.

[Nero-Voidstails]

they aren't the same but if you look at the basic it never really change other then some trick.

but compared to there early appearance in 14 all job look more alike then different like whm used to have protect shell stoneskin both fairy used to do two different thing bard having more song smn more Dot's like early job were more complex and if you wanna see some of those skills(yes some are still in game but not for player) do the squadron mission you will see some

[Valence]

There is a bit of dis-ingenuity in trying to find minute differences in pve abilities under the pretext that some numbers vary by a % or a second or two.

Take pvp, riddle of earth versus a more traditional sheltron (barrier + mit) and you'll see they already provide ten times more diversity and flavor than what all pve tanks currently have. And pvp holy sheltron still offers the "sheltron bomb" just to add that flavor to an otherwise pretty boring defensive. Pve isn't a totally lost cause yet though, as some little things are pretty unique, but you have to really count them on the fingers of one hand: living dead (even though Eventide is still way more engaging and spicy), vengeance/damnation (the retaliation effect) are two examples.

But also, and that's where the crux of the problem tends to lie as well: pvp offers a multitude of metrics and variables to design upon, while pve is a glorified 2 axis metric where it's all about dps/uptime, and some interspaced healing.

[Jeeqbit]

Just because things are setup the same, doesn't mean they play the same

People's problem is probably that they play similar enough to the point they can be setup the same.

jobs do need certain tools in order to function. Tank defensives for example, Yes, they all have the same number, all with their own flavour (excluding Rampart)

Much of that flavor eroded. PLD's 30% mit used to be 40%. In DT, they gave each of the 30% mits a different effect (shields, healing, regen, etc). But rather than this making them unique, it has homogenized them more. You used to be able to say "DRK is the magic shield tank, PLD is the raw mit/block tank, WAR is the HP and self-heal tank, GNB is a jack of all trades" but now they are all a jack of all trades with a mixture of shields, regens, self-heals and raw mit.

PLD can Holy Sheltron themselves and Intervention someone else in quick succession, GNB and WAR cannot do that.

WAR's version also has an effect on themselves, whereas PLD's are separated (I honestly expected them to merge Intervention into Sheltron in the 6.3 revamp and was surprised it wasn't). While GNB's is not separated, it also has Aurora which they can choose to use on either themselves or the target, similar to how DRK has two utility abilities it can use on any target.

Even when tanks do get more unique things, it isn't liked.

I would say that the unique things are liked - for example a lot of people liked how DRK was in HW or SB. The problem is that unique things are liked too much - to the point people want their job to have that unique thing too. So after SE complies and gives the unique thing to all jobs, it ceases to be unique.

So the question is, why have you chosen to make criticisms at (what I consider) such a broad level.

It's less a criticism and more answering OP's question and explaining why other people feel this way. I don't personally care that much and think that SE has mostly just removed redundant abilities and listened to feedback.

However, in addition to those things, SE has simplified the rotations to make them hard to mess up. To a large degree, this has been good because it's removed annoying and redundant things, but they could be a little more interesting in some cases. Managing resources on DRK used to be genuinely challenging and get you thinking strategically, but it really isn't anymore for example; you just press all your abilities on cooldown and that's it.

But, I think the biggest thing is, how would you (or anyone else) change it? I often hear about how ARR/HW/SB done it better, but let's hear some examples.

If you played then, why do you need examples? It's tedious doing a millionth trip down memory lane trying to remember stuff from 10 years ago, especially if you can do it yourself. A lot of wikis have History tabs to see action history in the past, and old youtube videos exist to see them in action. Chances are, others write about "how jobs used to be" in the job/battle forums all the time.

how would you change Sacred Soil and Kerachole so that they are different enough for you?

I don't know about those abilities, but I can give a great example of a job that always felt different despite having all the standard healing actions: AST. The card game always set it apart, even despite all its iterations of it. The criticism of AST became that the cards were no longer unique, so SE made them unique again. But now the criticism is that the cards have no RNG and there is no Royal Road or Lord/Lady system to put bad RNG cards into, and the effects end up being the usual healing oGCDs most healers have for the most part.

The RNG and Royal Road or Lord/Lady system made it fun and dynamic, at least for me, because I had to constantly figure out what to do with the cards I was dealt. Now I know what cards I will be dealt, and I'll do virtually the same thing every time, which is dump them on the tank and dps cards on the DPS, in the same order every single time now.

[Supersnow845]

Suggest how it could be better, for example, how would you change Sacred Soil and Kerachole so that they are different enough for you? By showing the kind of diversity you want, with more specific examples, it is easier to know what you are after, what you want. Just be aware that you need to keep in mind one thing. Every job has to be able to complete every piece of content. That is the only restriction.

For your example with sacred soil and kerechole they don’t both need to be a 15 second regen, 15 second 10% mitigation in roughly a circular shape. For example neither of them need the regen but if you are going to keep it only keep it on one. One could also offer more mitigation in exchange for being shorter. SCH could also return the old dys synergy with shadowflare as a key design of sacred soil. Sacred soil also benefited for its smaller size encouraging particular placement and strat arrangement

Basically SB sacred soil should be what SCH has and SGE should be given something actually unique as it doesn’t NEED a sacred soil equivalent, even a short oGCD shield could be an equivalent, or a pankardia+shields as a mitigation.

There was no need for SGE to just copy SCH’s abilities

[Azurarok]

While I'm well aware there's folks who think it was the right move, the biggest strike for me was them changing WHM/SCH's Glare/Broil into 1.5s casts from the 2.5s. I still stand by that they should've added different methods for gaining weave windows and mobility instead of just making it the same as AST, who actually needed the constant weave to manage the card systems with RNG, and even that's been replaced with a 60s cd that recovers mp and grants 2-3 utility options like Aetherflow.

Also with regular content, healing skills act similar enough to each other that you can use each job's counterpart the same way most of the time. I only really feel the differences when doing extremes and up. The same can be said for mitigation tools on tanks/physrange.

[DiaDeem]

R.e. healers and specifically SCH/SGE. They are the same job with a different coat of paint. I literally did a spreadsheet breakdown during EW mapping all their skills to figure out whether I was going stir crazy and there was something I was missing.

But... I still love SCH and hate SGE

[Astronis]

But... I still love SCH and hate SGE

I'm with you. People in this thread are saying WAR and DRK are the same...but WAR puts me to sleep while DRK never does. I get that these jobs play similarly and maybe too close for some people's enjoyment, but...they're different enough that SGE makes sense to me while SCH is impenetrable nonsense and WAR literally puts me in a trance while DRK is engaging to me.

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

But... I still love SCH and hate SGE

Same, but my reason for that is slightly different: I think SGE is a total waste of design space that could've been something unique on its own rather than a carbon copy. Furthermore they do not fulfill the promise of being the 'healer that heals through dpsing' as they've described. Like, I can't imagine this is what they've cooked up after claiming to have spent a loooooong time to figure out what to make out of 4th healer back in 5.4 LL when they first teased us about the job. Yes, that was to their own admittance.

The only thing that I could do on SGE and not over on SCH is to Rescue a person standing on a wrong spot and Icarus to my own designated spot. I did this in P2S prog back in Asphodelos when helping a friendo static. But I can't do this too often & it's also a super niche thing they're not enough to make me feel I'm playing a different job.