Genuine Question about Job Homogeneity

[kajv95]

The homogenity complaints are in part due to the fact that every single job is a "build gauge to spend during burst" job now. Yes, they have some flavor differences, and the way the burst builds can be different, but overall the goal is always the same.
It's a complaint because it *wasn't like that* before. There were tangible differences, such as BRD being defined by snapshotting crit buffs onto DoTs to gain rapid big attacks while providing a continuous buff cycle and acting as an MP/TP battery to the rest of the party.
Now, BRD simply builds up gauge to release it. Sure, it's technically different from its peers, but every job is effectively "filler until everyone releases together" and if you don't like that type of gameplay, well, there's really no job left that *isn't* designed in the same "build gauge to burst" style by this point.

What drove it home for me was during leveling in Dawntrail, I decided to actually set up my hotbars and as it turned out, I picked up every job pretty quickly and efficiently simply because I understood that they were all about the same thing. I build gauge, I spend for big damage. You do it on tanks, you do it on dps, and you do it on healers too.

[ZephyrMenodora]

If you havent yet, Shougun's thread is a good read to get a general idea of what it would be like to give flavour back to the jobs

If you were to remove the icons and animations from the jobs, and only were left with "attack 1, attack 2, attack 3" and so on, could you tell the difference between Scholar and Sage?, could you tell appart from Gunbreaker and Paladin? (Trick question, you could, because you have played them, but it would be quite hard for a casual)

Even if you don't know what the jobs are you are playing, it's easy to tell the difference that they are different jobs in your example. Continuation feels different than Paladin's burst period. GNB doesn't have access to the shields or burst heal you might want at times on a Paladin.

Your position that you use on some of the DPS skills on Sage and Sch differ. How the fairy operates is different than Kardia passive healing. The tools and how you use them still vary.

[Gurgeh]

Though I'll probably regret making the thread, this has been sitting in my mind for a while, so I wanna ask genuinely about it. No funny screenshots or anything this time.

I keep hearing people calling the jobs "too homogeneous" or that they're all "the same" and as much as I try... I just don't see it, at least not in the way people talk about it...

Hmm ok interesting. Because I was was recognising the homogeneity that people were talking about, but not looking closely tat what part of that was what I felt vs what I recognised.

For me, I guess its lots of different things

* I love PLD now... but I still miss how its DoT made the job 'feel'. Would I go back? Yeah I would actually. And I'm pretty sure there was room for some of the current job plus the DoT.

* I never liked WAR but even I massively miss the unique feel that its Cleave shaped aoe gave it in dungeons. If I'd have been a WAR fan I would have been really fed-up by that. (Why on earth they felt the need to change that is still beyond me. Its only used in dungeons, where it only just .about matters if your stance is off, forget how optimal your aoe is, it didn't matter)

* I think the loss of the OLD SMN was a shame. If I'd been a SMN main, I'd have been fed-up. The job was in every meaningful sense just deleted. I'm not a good player, but I loved the challenge of being able to work hard on putting together most of the old SMN rotation most of the time. i could turn on hard mode for dungeon for example by trying to play it as best I could.

* Poor Astrologians. Just poor Astrologians. Why bother learning the job they are just going to blitz it again.

And it appears (to me at least) like the pressure giving rise to all this, is to make all jobs on a par with each other... which sounds like maths job... which means if your going to make tuning remotely feasible or effective, I start to suspect and be sensitive to anything in one job that looks like another. And I'm not wild about all of the above changes.

Surely most agree that there is now nothing like the massive differences between jobs that 'used' to exist in the past?

I mean ASTRO, yeah we needed 2 barrier 2 regen. But would it really have been the end of the world to end up with 3 barrier, and 2 regen?
ASTRO was great for alliances and Trials where you never new what the other healer would be.
Now I groan when you get 2 SCH on a level 60 alliance that starts to get a bit messy. I mean is fine, but I miss not having a bit more aoe regen sometimes. It just feels very sub-optimal.

[DiaDeem]

snip

Thank you for your honest response, and I did check out your other thread!

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the vibe that the issue is more with content not letting any Job-specific action shine, but wouldn't that be a content issue more than a Job issue?

- Old Castrum Meridianum had the ceruleum pipes we had to blow up, and NIN used to be able to go stealth and blow both up without aggroing anything near the pipes, but barely anyone could do that because everyone would just mindlessly charge ahead and kill everything either way.

- In Haukke Manor, NIN can ignore the entire basement segment with Hide and get the key to enter Boss 2 without fighting a single enemy, but nobody does it.

- Brayflox Loongstop you can sleep the second boss, or the mini-boss that spawns with him, but nobody does it.

- More recently, the turtle right before the final boss in Origenics has a big AOE stomp can be interrupted if put to sleep, which makes RDM the best caster to run that dungeon with.

- DRK's TBN can absorb The Queen's Cleansing Slash in DR, entirely negating the Doom that it'd apply otherwise. SCH/SGE shields will also do the trick.

But that's the issue though. These are the only examples I could think of, all of them can be entirely ignored, and one of them doesn't even exist anymore. Looking it at it like this, the issue feels more with the content being made so all you really have to do is Tank and Spank, rather than having stuff like... "Oh, electricity short circuits this mechanic, so bring a NIN or a BLM" or something like that. Am I somewhat on the right track here?

I did chuckle that you love NIN and hate Monk. I love Monk and hate Ninja lol.

And, one last thing, melee wise, I am a Monk over Ninja player. Ninja is the last melee I still need to get to 100.

[ZephyrMenodora]

I see your Narutu and raise you a (totally not Haduken, Enlightenment)

[kajv95]

- More recently, the turtle right before the final boss in Origenics has a big AOE stomp can be interrupted if put to sleep, which makes RDM the best caster to run that dungeon with.

Clarifying Origenics: Sleep is a role action, so every caster has access to it. On top of that, healers have Repose as a role action, so all healers also have a sleep spell. it's a cute touch, just not really helping the job identity thing.

[NegativeS]

I get the feeling that this thread was made partly because of our conversation in the other thread, so I'll offer my perspective:

I'm going to pick two random DoW DPS jobs and go over their rotation. Let's see... VPR, MCH.

VPR: 123 single target combo, or 123 AOE combo. With some variation depending on which button lights up. Occasionally, you can use a different ability that unlocks a separate, harder-hitting combo, and after filling a bar you gain a single use of your 'capstone' combo.
MCH: 123 single target combo. No AOE combo, just one ability plus another that you use off cooldown. Occasionally, you can use a different ability that unlocks a separate, harder-hitting ability, and after filling a bar you gain a single use of your 'capstone' ability.

Okay, two random DoW tank jobs. WAR and DRK.

WAR: 123 single target combo, or 12 AOE combo. Every now and then you hit a different button in your combo to increase damage dealt. You fill a bar to use a more powerful attack, or you use a different ability to use this attack anyway, and every 2 minutes you gain a single use of your 'capstone' attack.
DRK: 123 single target combo, or 12 AOE combo. Every now and then you hit a different button to increase damage dealt. You fill a bar to use a more powerful combo, or you use a different ability to use this combo anyway, and every 2 minutes you gain a single use of your 'capstone' attack.

I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

They can make jobs look as different as they want, and they've done a good job doing so. But, as a person who has played several years, if they stripped all the art and flavor off of every attack and only left the combos and damage, I wouldn't have a clue what job I was playing. Maybe the larger range would give away that I was playing MCH compared to VPR, but you get the point, I'm sure.

(Note: While doing this I did try this with DoM DPS jobs and noted that they are pretty unique, which is why I would guess they are so popular. So, one point for SE. No point in doing it for healers since a healer's rotation is not really set in stone because of healing being reactionary, but I would be glad to go over how similar their builds are if requested)

If I'm delusional, please let me know. But I've maxed all 4 of these classes and played them some besides, and I can confidently say they are homogenized.

[DiaDeem]

Clarifying Origenics: Sleep is a role action, so every caster has access to it.

Oh, yeah. That said, the stomp is frequent enough that only RDM (Dualcast) and AST (Lightspeed) get to apply the Sleep way more consistently than anyone else.

Here's the thing though... I'm right, but you're also right. The turtle example is just of a handful (listed above) that can all be ignored or that don't really go deep enough with what you could do with content variety. The turtle here being an example of something that doesn't go deep enough. If the stomp was unavoidable and left some kind of debuff that carried over into the Final Boss, and the cast was a bit faster, you'd definitely have to always have a Sleep ready to avoid that.

Or dunno, am I entirely lost with this?

I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

Thanks for your honest response, really! And yeah, the little convo over on the other thread did give me the final push to make this thread.

And gonna be frank: Yes, your examples do paint a very clear picture, so I do understand where you're coming from.

On the same breath though, do you understand where I'm coming from when I say I find way more fun to use Aetherflow and Recitation over the entire Eukrasia mechanic? Same thing with my Mudras when compared to the Monk Chakras, which clearly are different enough to have some people here have the entire opposite opinion around NIN/MNK that I have.

I guess I wanna follow up with this question: Do you think all jobs suffer the same from the issue you described above? Or do you think some would be fine for you with just a handful of tweaks or more content that was tailor made to use their kits? Or do you really think all of them are a lost cause?

And no, I don't think you're delusional. Turning my BS snark all the way off for this thread.

[AmiableApkallu]

But jobs all "feeling the same"? I genuinely can't wrap my head around that one.

If the emphasis is on "jobs all", then I also don't understand.

If the emphasis is on "feeling the same", then I feel (pun intended?) that's 100% subjective.

My own perspective focuses on the tanks and the healers (sans Astrologian, because I simply cannot make myself like Dawntrail's card system), and I'm approaching this from the perspective of someone who's looking only at Duty Finder content:

All the tanks might "feel" different from each other, but if you can play one tank, I can tell you how to map 50+% of your buttons if you want to play another tank.

All the healers might "feel" different from each other, but if you can play one healer, I can tell you how to map 50+% of your buttons if you want to play another healer.

There are days when I feel like I shouldn't be able to so trivially map buttons between different jobs. That it's homogenization when every tank has a "40% mit." That it's homogenization when every healer has an otherwise-generic "oGCD single target heal."

[Shougun]

Thank you for your honest response, and I did check out your other thread!

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the vibe that the issue is more with content not letting any Job-specific action shine, but wouldn't that be a content issue more than a Job issue?

- Old Castrum Meridianum had the ceruleum pipes we had to blow up, and NIN used to be able to go stealth and blow both up without aggroing anything near the pipes, but barely anyone could do that because everyone would just mindlessly charge ahead and kill everything either way.

- In Haukke Manor, NIN can ignore the entire basement segment with Hide and get the key to enter Boss 2 without fighting a single enemy, but nobody does it.

- Brayflox Loongstop you can sleep the second boss, or the mini-boss that spawns with him, but nobody does it.

- More recently, the turtle right before the final boss in Origenics has a big AOE stomp can be interrupted if put to sleep, which makes RDM the best caster to run that dungeon with.

- DRK's TBN can absorb The Queen's Cleansing Slash in DR, entirely negating the Doom that it'd apply otherwise. SCH/SGE shields will also do the trick.

But that's the issue though. These are the only examples I could think of, all of them can be entirely ignored, and one of them doesn't even exist anymore. Looking it at it like this, the issue feels more with the content being made so all you really have to do is Tank and Spank, rather than having stuff like... "Oh, electricity short circuits this mechanic, so bring a NIN or a BLM" or something like that. Am I somewhat on the right track here?

I think that you came up with a limited list, which I appreciate you attempted to do, is an example of the whole problem though. People are going cross eyed and saying it all feels similar. I wouldn't agree that it is LITERALLY the same, but I definitely am on team "I feel cross eyed". I guess another word is like "growing apathy".


There is also the consequence of actual, number and feature based, gameplay differences being harder to balance (though WoW is not doing terrible right now, with context that each job is pretty different feeling, outside of the bugs LOL). To me if someone was like come up with ONE thing that would make a difference and I'd go.. "I can't" we need a lot of things, and many might feel really small, but as a collection it would be my hope that when you switch jobs, or do some different content, your mind almost gets hijacked. Like I just took your train set and chucked it out the window and gave you a boat, and now you got to figure out how to use the boat. A bit bombastic of a statement lol, but that's the boardroom pitch . That said, even with the potential danger.. at this point I'm leaning into the fire and being like.. "maybe I do want to be burned a little.. just to feel alive!" haha.

Like off hand, right away- there are no role actions anymore. I've eaten them and you don't get them back. Each job, where REQUIRED, will get something unique to them that operates differently, but you four tanks don't all share rampart. That's tasteless (in sense of texture / food). I'm not serving flavorless octopus over here dangit! lol. At this point I'd like to add it's easier to think of criticism, and even ideas, than actually do- so I don't want to give the impression of "its easy".. just that if you say what would you like and I will be like "I've 1,000 minor ideas that you might not notice immediately, but as a unit you would, and 100 major ideas that will disrupt your flow intentionally so that you have no choice but to see them differently (hopefully in a fun way)".

Leeches (SCH) should operate differently than Esuna, even if it's just minor. Like Leeches will apply a buff lasting 30 seconds that every 10 seconds removes a debuff and grants a HoT each time it does so (starting at the cast), you can only have two leeches up at one time (last leech is the one to be moved, if you cast beyond 2 active leeches). Esuna instantly removes two debuffs, and if it crits removes them all.

All healers are not sharing esuna! Why? Because thematically that's boring and every little thing that is more similar than not messes with the idea I am calling texture. I apologize for people who are not following with it, because I am making words to describe my feeling.. So.. my current definition in this usage is probably along the lines of 'mechanics and concepts that apply mental traction to the situation and create unique memories associated to specific concepts'. FFXIV still fun, and insanely pretty (when I was casting spells in WoW I was like "wow.. that fire looks like butt" lol), but 'texture' is my feedback.

Like when you're in the zones attacked by Garleans, we should be able to fix it up as we increase our zone levels, unlocking new merchants and stuff. Just using FFXIV's own example, remember the Shroud fate where when you lost the enemy took over the outpost and when you won you got a little town and vendor? (Which thanalan had too)... Those ideas died there, I would have hoped they not only lived but improved.

I can definitely come up with more ideas, on any topic.. so I don't want to appear lazy when I am swinging this massive brush around screaming texture like a mad man lol.. but I also don't want you to be like "HOLY NO THANKS, NOT READING THAT" as I am common to make in general