Genuine Question about Job Homogeneity

[DiaDeem]

Though I'll probably regret making the thread, this has been sitting in my mind for a while, so I wanna ask genuinely about it. No funny screenshots or anything this time.

I keep hearing people calling the jobs "too homogeneous" or that they're all "the same" and as much as I try... I just don't see it, at least not in the way people talk about it.

Every xpac, I like to max out all my jobs, and it has led me to a few discoveries overtime, so for instance:

- I main SCH, but I absolutely hate SGE.
- I adore NIN, but I absolutely hate MNK.
- I can't stand DRK, and though I like PLD, GNB is my favorite of the tanks.
- I love playing RDM, but I can't BLM very well. SMN is just easy.
- AST is much more complex and varied than the easy WHM. I like both well enough in their own right.
- SAM, WAR and DRG have just never appealed to me.
- DNC I like just fine, but BRD I actually like to hop on here and there.

Every job, at the end of the day is doing one of three things: Damage, Healing or Sustain, but the way they go about it, the actual moment-to-moment flow just feels (for the most part) very different to me.

That said, and this is important: Over-simplifying jobs I do understand. Removing Viper's debuff, the whole Kaiten thing, the way BLM handles mana regen through Ice stance, removing Diurnal/Nocturnal Stances from AST, removing the DoT Job (old SMN), Bane/Miasma/Aero III gone for Healers, etc.

That issue I do understand. But jobs all "feeling the same"? I genuinely can't wrap my head around that one.

Hoping this doesn't devolve into the mess Forum threads usually become. I'm legit trying to understand the argument.

[ZephyrMenodora]

I agree with you. Some people on the Healer Strike claim all the healers are exactly the same, but I don't feel that way at all. I love White Mage, Scholar is Okay - and I just don't really like Sage or Ast. There are some overlapping abilities, just so you can perform your basic function, but there are a lot of small differences and tools that add up to a vastly different feel while playing.

I did chuckle that you love NIN and hate Monk. I love Monk and hate Ninja lol.

[DiaDeem]

snip

Thank you for your honest response, and I did check out your other thread!

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the vibe that the issue is more with content not letting any Job-specific action shine, but wouldn't that be a content issue more than a Job issue?

- Old Castrum Meridianum had the ceruleum pipes we had to blow up, and NIN used to be able to go stealth and blow both up without aggroing anything near the pipes, but barely anyone could do that because everyone would just mindlessly charge ahead and kill everything either way.

- In Haukke Manor, NIN can ignore the entire basement segment with Hide and get the key to enter Boss 2 without fighting a single enemy, but nobody does it.

- Brayflox Loongstop you can sleep the second boss, or the mini-boss that spawns with him, but nobody does it.

- More recently, the turtle right before the final boss in Origenics has a big AOE stomp can be interrupted if put to sleep, which makes RDM the best caster to run that dungeon with.

- DRK's TBN can absorb The Queen's Cleansing Slash in DR, entirely negating the Doom that it'd apply otherwise. SCH/SGE shields will also do the trick.

But that's the issue though. These are the only examples I could think of, all of them can be entirely ignored, and one of them doesn't even exist anymore. Looking it at it like this, the issue feels more with the content being made so all you really have to do is Tank and Spank, rather than having stuff like... "Oh, electricity short circuits this mechanic, so bring a NIN or a BLM" or something like that. Am I somewhat on the right track here?

I did chuckle that you love NIN and hate Monk. I love Monk and hate Ninja lol.

And, one last thing, melee wise, I am a Monk over Ninja player. Ninja is the last melee I still need to get to 100.

[ZephyrMenodora]

I see your Narutu and raise you a (totally not Haduken, Enlightenment)

[kajv95]

- More recently, the turtle right before the final boss in Origenics has a big AOE stomp can be interrupted if put to sleep, which makes RDM the best caster to run that dungeon with.

Clarifying Origenics: Sleep is a role action, so every caster has access to it. On top of that, healers have Repose as a role action, so all healers also have a sleep spell. it's a cute touch, just not really helping the job identity thing.

[DiaDeem]

Clarifying Origenics: Sleep is a role action, so every caster has access to it.

Oh, yeah. That said, the stomp is frequent enough that only RDM (Dualcast) and AST (Lightspeed) get to apply the Sleep way more consistently than anyone else.

Here's the thing though... I'm right, but you're also right. The turtle example is just of a handful (listed above) that can all be ignored or that don't really go deep enough with what you could do with content variety. The turtle here being an example of something that doesn't go deep enough. If the stomp was unavoidable and left some kind of debuff that carried over into the Final Boss, and the cast was a bit faster, you'd definitely have to always have a Sleep ready to avoid that.

Or dunno, am I entirely lost with this?

I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

Thanks for your honest response, really! And yeah, the little convo over on the other thread did give me the final push to make this thread.

And gonna be frank: Yes, your examples do paint a very clear picture, so I do understand where you're coming from.

On the same breath though, do you understand where I'm coming from when I say I find way more fun to use Aetherflow and Recitation over the entire Eukrasia mechanic? Same thing with my Mudras when compared to the Monk Chakras, which clearly are different enough to have some people here have the entire opposite opinion around NIN/MNK that I have.

I guess I wanna follow up with this question: Do you think all jobs suffer the same from the issue you described above? Or do you think some would be fine for you with just a handful of tweaks or more content that was tailor made to use their kits? Or do you really think all of them are a lost cause?

And no, I don't think you're delusional. Turning my BS snark all the way off for this thread.

[kajv95]

Oh, yeah. That said, the stomp is frequent enough that only RDM (Dualcast) and AST (Lightspeed) get to apply the Sleep way more consistently than anyone else.

Here's the thing though... I'm right, but you're also right. The turtle example is just of a handful (listed above) that can all be ignored or that don't really go deep enough with what you could do with content variety. The turtle here being an example of something that doesn't go deep enough. If the stomp was unavoidable and left some kind of debuff that carried over into the Final Boss, and the cast was a bit faster, you'd definitely have to always have a Sleep ready to avoid that.

Or dunno, am I entirely lost with this?

Spot-on, actually. Although any job can easily just cast more sleeps since red mage is sacrificing just as much as the other jobs would because it's GCD. Anyway...
The reason the content can't "be interesting" in this sense is because you cannot guarantee a tool is in the party unless everyone in a guaranteed role has it. For dungeons, this means you can really only center mechanics around tanking, healing and the fact there are two red roles. The nature of the modern MMO beast.

Now, job design and encounter design obviously influence one another - since you can't design for jobs that don't exist. And since every job right now is a 120s burst job with slight variations in the middle, you cannot have any jobs be better or worse than any other in any encounter. I think that was actually the goal - to make sure everyone is on equal grounds of sorts (which still isn't the case anyway) but ultimately it means that encounter design is locked into a very narrow corridor since cc basically doesn't work and can't be designed around and the damage of a group is so reliant on the burst window now that desyncing it might just cause a miss of the dps check.

So everyone is forced to play the same way for "balance", battles are forced to be designed very similarly as a result, and it all contributes to a feeling of same old, same old.

Adding onto this (edit, sorry): the job you play is effectively a lens for the content you play, so if the jobs aren't fulfilling, then no matter how thrilling an encounter might be, you're still going to feel rotten about it upon entering for reclears since the novelty of the new encounter wears off. Conversely, if the jobs are fulfilling, then even mediocre battles can be rather enjoyable because, well, you're having fun just pressing the buttons.

Also, while I'm editing this post, I respect you a lot for actually trying to figure out why people are feeling this way and having actual conversations about it. Cheers <3

[NegativeS]

On the same breath though, do you understand where I'm coming from when I say I find way more fun to use Aetherflow and Recitation over the entire Eukrasia mechanic? Same thing with my Mudras when compared to the Monk Chakras, which clearly are different enough to have some people here have the entire opposite opinion around NIN/MNK that I have.

I guess I wanna follow up with this question: Do you think all jobs suffer the same from the issue you described above? Or do you think some would be fine for you with just a handful of tweaks or more content that was tailor made to use their kits? Or do you really think all of them are a lost cause?

And no, I don't think you're delusional. Turning my BS snark all the way off for this thread.

I will say that some roles (not jobs, roles) are better with uniqueness than others. Tank is abysmal in this regard--I don't think I could be convinced that they don't all play the same in their current state. Melee is next--could definitely be worse, but they all have 123 (with variation) combos, a DoT, and a gauge to fill for a capstone. Healers are next--like I said you can't really set a healer's rotation in stone, but there is little-to-no variation of their core kits (other than whether they give regen or a shield). rDPS comes after--unique within their role, and their utility sets them apart, but they all have some overlap with other jobs. Casters are last--they're all pretty unique, and honestly I don't have much of a problem with them.

I may have over-exaggerated a bit in the other thread when I said "kill ALL jobs", but I feel like something like that would need to be done if we are to distance ourselves from the 2-minute-meta downward spiral the devs seem to be caught in.

If they could incorporate the 2MM buffs in a smarter way, then I think DoM DPS would be in a good spot.
If they could give healers more of a varied core kit other than 'single target heal, single target heal with pizzazz, AOE heal, AOE heal with pizzazz', then I think healers would be in... well, a better spot.
If they could take a page out of Bard's book and give the other DoW rDPS something other than 123 combos (NOT SAYING TO COPY BARD), then I think rDPS would be in a good spot.

But melee and tank? Yeah, tear them down, gut them, reshape them in someone else's design philosophy.

Also,

I find way more fun to use Aetherflow and Recitation over the entire Eukrasia mechanic?

Agreed. I love Scholar. Hate Sage. Simple as.

[Shougun]

Thank you for your honest response, and I did check out your other thread!

Please do correct me if I'm wrong, but I got the vibe that the issue is more with content not letting any Job-specific action shine, but wouldn't that be a content issue more than a Job issue?

- Old Castrum Meridianum had the ceruleum pipes we had to blow up, and NIN used to be able to go stealth and blow both up without aggroing anything near the pipes, but barely anyone could do that because everyone would just mindlessly charge ahead and kill everything either way.

- In Haukke Manor, NIN can ignore the entire basement segment with Hide and get the key to enter Boss 2 without fighting a single enemy, but nobody does it.

- Brayflox Loongstop you can sleep the second boss, or the mini-boss that spawns with him, but nobody does it.

- More recently, the turtle right before the final boss in Origenics has a big AOE stomp can be interrupted if put to sleep, which makes RDM the best caster to run that dungeon with.

- DRK's TBN can absorb The Queen's Cleansing Slash in DR, entirely negating the Doom that it'd apply otherwise. SCH/SGE shields will also do the trick.

But that's the issue though. These are the only examples I could think of, all of them can be entirely ignored, and one of them doesn't even exist anymore. Looking it at it like this, the issue feels more with the content being made so all you really have to do is Tank and Spank, rather than having stuff like... "Oh, electricity short circuits this mechanic, so bring a NIN or a BLM" or something like that. Am I somewhat on the right track here?

I think that you came up with a limited list, which I appreciate you attempted to do, is an example of the whole problem though. People are going cross eyed and saying it all feels similar. I wouldn't agree that it is LITERALLY the same, but I definitely am on team "I feel cross eyed". I guess another word is like "growing apathy".


There is also the consequence of actual, number and feature based, gameplay differences being harder to balance (though WoW is not doing terrible right now, with context that each job is pretty different feeling, outside of the bugs LOL). To me if someone was like come up with ONE thing that would make a difference and I'd go.. "I can't" we need a lot of things, and many might feel really small, but as a collection it would be my hope that when you switch jobs, or do some different content, your mind almost gets hijacked. Like I just took your train set and chucked it out the window and gave you a boat, and now you got to figure out how to use the boat. A bit bombastic of a statement lol, but that's the boardroom pitch . That said, even with the potential danger.. at this point I'm leaning into the fire and being like.. "maybe I do want to be burned a little.. just to feel alive!" haha.

Like off hand, right away- there are no role actions anymore. I've eaten them and you don't get them back. Each job, where REQUIRED, will get something unique to them that operates differently, but you four tanks don't all share rampart. That's tasteless (in sense of texture / food). I'm not serving flavorless octopus over here dangit! lol. At this point I'd like to add it's easier to think of criticism, and even ideas, than actually do- so I don't want to give the impression of "its easy".. just that if you say what would you like and I will be like "I've 1,000 minor ideas that you might not notice immediately, but as a unit you would, and 100 major ideas that will disrupt your flow intentionally so that you have no choice but to see them differently (hopefully in a fun way)".

Leeches (SCH) should operate differently than Esuna, even if it's just minor. Like Leeches will apply a buff lasting 30 seconds that every 10 seconds removes a debuff and grants a HoT each time it does so (starting at the cast), you can only have two leeches up at one time (last leech is the one to be moved, if you cast beyond 2 active leeches). Esuna instantly removes two debuffs, and if it crits removes them all.

All healers are not sharing esuna! Why? Because thematically that's boring and every little thing that is more similar than not messes with the idea I am calling texture. I apologize for people who are not following with it, because I am making words to describe my feeling.. So.. my current definition in this usage is probably along the lines of 'mechanics and concepts that apply mental traction to the situation and create unique memories associated to specific concepts'. FFXIV still fun, and insanely pretty (when I was casting spells in WoW I was like "wow.. that fire looks like butt" lol), but 'texture' is my feedback.

Like when you're in the zones attacked by Garleans, we should be able to fix it up as we increase our zone levels, unlocking new merchants and stuff. Just using FFXIV's own example, remember the Shroud fate where when you lost the enemy took over the outpost and when you won you got a little town and vendor? (Which thanalan had too)... Those ideas died there, I would have hoped they not only lived but improved.

I can definitely come up with more ideas, on any topic.. so I don't want to appear lazy when I am swinging this massive brush around screaming texture like a mad man lol.. but I also don't want you to be like "HOLY NO THANKS, NOT READING THAT" as I am common to make in general

[DiaDeem]

Like I just took your train set and chucked it out the window and gave you a boat, and now you got to figure out how to use the boat.

lol I love that statement

Leeches (SCH) should operate differently than Esuna, even if it's just minor. Like Leeches will apply a buff lasting 30 seconds that every 10 seconds removes a debuff and grants a HoT each time, you can only have two leeches up at one time (last leech is the one to be moved, if you cast beyond 2 active leeches). Esuna instantly removes two debuffs, and if it crits removes them all.

I feel there's overlap here with the simplification of jobs. Why everyone has Esuna? Cause it's easy and simple to understand and everyone uses it the same. Like.. it makes sense, but I can see how it erodes Job identity.

I've been reading everyone's posts, and for the most part I think I understand where the sentiment that I didn't quite understand before comes from, but I'm also realizing a lot of it is not inherent to every Job's design and there's a lot of overlap with content design and job simplification.

Also, I'm just glad the thread hasn't devolved into degeneracy lol

The reason the content can't "be interesting" in this sense is because you cannot guarantee a tool is in the party unless everyone in a guaranteed role has it. For dungeons, this means you can really only center mechanics around tanking, healing and the fact there are two red roles. The nature of the modern MMO beast.

We were just in Amdapor (Hard) and the tank didn't know you can pull ads into the light shafts to debuff them.

This thread is making me realize how much I miss ARR/HW-era dungeon design...

I can tell you how to map 50+% of your buttons if you want to play another healer.

Well, that's the thing though. I specifically do my bars so they resemble each other across jobs, because my brain remembers button combos better than it does spell lists, and even with this, I still really dislike SGE compared to my SCH. I think it's more about enjoying the job rather than being able to just play it, which admittedly isn't very hard to do for any of the jobs.

Writing this comment has also made me think of something: I play on controller, so now I'm starting to wonder how much that influences how I feel about Job diversity.