Genuine Question about Job Homogeneity

[DiaDeem]

Though I'll probably regret making the thread, this has been sitting in my mind for a while, so I wanna ask genuinely about it. No funny screenshots or anything this time.

I keep hearing people calling the jobs "too homogeneous" or that they're all "the same" and as much as I try... I just don't see it, at least not in the way people talk about it.

Every xpac, I like to max out all my jobs, and it has led me to a few discoveries overtime, so for instance:

- I main SCH, but I absolutely hate SGE.
- I adore NIN, but I absolutely hate MNK.
- I can't stand DRK, and though I like PLD, GNB is my favorite of the tanks.
- I love playing RDM, but I can't BLM very well. SMN is just easy.
- AST is much more complex and varied than the easy WHM. I like both well enough in their own right.
- SAM, WAR and DRG have just never appealed to me.
- DNC I like just fine, but BRD I actually like to hop on here and there.

Every job, at the end of the day is doing one of three things: Damage, Healing or Sustain, but the way they go about it, the actual moment-to-moment flow just feels (for the most part) very different to me.

That said, and this is important: Over-simplifying jobs I do understand. Removing Viper's debuff, the whole Kaiten thing, the way BLM handles mana regen through Ice stance, removing Diurnal/Nocturnal Stances from AST, removing the DoT Job (old SMN), Bane/Miasma/Aero III gone for Healers, etc.

That issue I do understand. But jobs all "feeling the same"? I genuinely can't wrap my head around that one.

Hoping this doesn't devolve into the mess Forum threads usually become. I'm legit trying to understand the argument.

[ZephyrMenodora]

I agree with you. Some people on the Healer Strike claim all the healers are exactly the same, but I don't feel that way at all. I love White Mage, Scholar is Okay - and I just don't really like Sage or Ast. There are some overlapping abilities, just so you can perform your basic function, but there are a lot of small differences and tools that add up to a vastly different feel while playing.

I did chuckle that you love NIN and hate Monk. I love Monk and hate Ninja lol.

[Striker44]

I'm right there with you. There are basic similarities within most job roles (for example, each tank will have a throw, an AoE combo, a single-target combo, a smaller mitigation, a larger mitigation), but there are also very unique things to each class in my opinion. I'm in the same boat where for tanks, I love playing PLD and to a somewhat lesser extent WAR, but I can't really get into DRK or GNB. For healers, it's SCH all the way, with WHM on the side (AST has been growing on me recently as I level it, but SGE I can't get into). For DPS - it's RDM, BRD, and DRG to take one of each role. Haven't really been able to get into any other DPS classes.

And why? Because I find them all very different in unique ways once you get past the surface similarities of having a shared basic kit of moves. Each class has things that make it completely distinct from the other classes in its role. My own mind can't wrap itself around this "all jobs are the same" idea, either.

[Mikey_R]

Just to echo what has been said here, no, jobs do not play the same, there may be some overlap, but this doesn't mean they are the same. Even something as basic as comparing Scholar's Sacred Soil and Sage's Kerachole. On the surface, they are both the same, 10% damage mitigation with a 15 second, 100 potency per tick heal, however, look a bit deeper. They both use their respective healer's resource, Aetherflow/Addersgall, however, both of those resources are generated differently, Scholar getting 3 Aetherflow every minute, whilst Sage gets 1 Addersgall every 20 seconds, not to mention Dissipation grants 3 every 3 minutes, whilst Rhizomata generates 1 every 90 seconds, then how each support MP gains. etc.

Whilst the action themselves are essentially the same, the underlying mechanics means you need to handle things differently.

To give an example of a discussion I had a while ago, before DT was released (IIRC it was after the media tour, so we had access to all the new job info), someone claimed Ninja and Monk played the same. Even after I made a fairly long post describing differences (not even all of them), they still insisted they 'felt' the same. Why? They both had a 60 second and a 120 second burst period. Let's ignore the fact that Ninja's burst is based on debuffs and (until recently), only affected a single target, as opposed to Monk where they are buff based, no, they are the same just from that.

Now, granted, that was a single person, however, I'm pretty sure people see a complaint, and just copy it, without knowing what it actually means. It's the same when the claim that jobs have no depth gets thrown around, what do you actually mean, especially when they claim jobs had depth before, ok, but how?

Trying to coax out what they actually want, in any sort of detail, or provide examples can be like trying to draw blood from a stone. Words are just thrown around, but noone knows what is actually being communicated and it is frustrating.

And, one last thing, melee wise, I am a Monk over Ninja player. Ninja is the last melee I still need to get to 100.

[Hallarem]

SE would like to know your location and hire you for their P.R team.

[Shougun]

They're not exactly the same but they feel very transparent, to quickly describe it. Like what if we took a handful of random animals, very distinct animals, and made them all look like they lived in the deep ocean with that neat transparent effect. Are they technically different? Yes... Are they going to blur together, especially over long periods of time? At least to me, absolutely. Like there is a fairly strict structure that has to be followed, and you mostly get different colors appearing at different patterns for the same result. This does provide consistent solid balance, I'll give you that.. but thematically it makes things less relevant.

FFXIV has moved more and more to a transparent texture to their game. I've been calling it roleplay gameplay, because to me that is ultimately the big picture issue FFXIV has as a whole (not just jobs), but to how I see it-- this is the texture that is not only not that strong to begin with (at least post HW) but is actually getting weaker in almost all regards. Like our quests are still quite basic, the interactions in the open world have hardly evolved, you navigate by holding a single key and pointing, its all exceptionally streamlined.... and given the extra variable of time (which forms familarity) it all begins to morph into some sort of transparent and textureless experience that you hope the story will break (so if the story doesn't hit... good luck).

"Please add fur, scales, and colors to the animals!!" and SE goes "we heard you, we made the bone 50% more transparent and everything is the same color". If I'm being honest, yes I can STILL tell that a see through deep sea lion looks different than a see through deep sea otter. I still wont like it though and I still will feel like if you put them in a group family photo that stuff is blurring together way too much.

Textually when I play I usually only notice the huge standouts, like can I battle raise, or effectively support, perhaps if I need to predict vs respond (mobility). Beyond that it's "whatever you want me to play I can play, cause it doesn't really matter". I made a thread on avoiding much gameplay impact, to avoid intentionally talking about balance, but adding roleplay.. so if you wanted examples see that (https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-to-Other-MMOs)).

I do feel the PvP kits do better at all this though. Matters more to me what I'm playing, who I'm with, and who I'm against.

But to maybe make some quick dirty gameplay and non-gameplay examples using WoW (woo, everyone's favorite mirror! lol).. Mage has ice block which is a sort of Blue Mage Diamondback, except better. EXCEPT BETTER. Caps for purpose, as I believe if WoW was tasked with making Blue Mage they would have kept it weird but also 'normal' lol. You've Demon Hunter with double jump and glide, both add ABSOLUTELY SUBSTANTIAL mobility and will instantly remind you that you're not playing DH if you switch (also one of the most mobile jobs, with many movement skills just working in air too-- unlike FFXIV's 2d movement if you dash in air as DH you dash.. in air... and then can glide). Druid can instant battle mount and play all roles, breathing underwater and harvesting plants while mounted (notice that pretty quick lol). DK can mount combat.. with Blood and Unholy feeling substantially different (unkillable solo mad lad vs Necromancer). Shifting to races, quests, and items. Like for races, you'll know you're a esuna race when you're in PvP and just say "no thanks to that debuff" and other races can't (and means you need to know the race you're fighting in more intimate combat), or that you are a Dark Dwarf and gain 10 extra portals (I'm not really asking specifically for racials in FFXIV given how this game works (job via character based), but still an example of texture).

I didn't write a lot not because I can't but because I figured I shouldn't.. The list is substantially long and pervades beyond jobs, I would add that the list is so long adds to that texture (few and minor would be essentially smooth, many and some substantial- textured). The game has other issues, so don't let this praise side track from potentially other concerns like uh.. bugs.. or they love nerfing over buffing.

In short, it feels like we started with little texture and as time goes on we lose even more.

[mallleable]

A harsh truth is that some amount of homogenization is unavoidable. FFXIV has been running for a while now, and job mechanic tropes will get established, and will be used, and there will be overlaps. While it is a different genre, something to consider is how there are only realistically four mechanics that a designer can use when designing weapons or characters in a shooter game: flick vs. tracking aim, and hitscan vs. projectile in terms of how the 'bullet' works. And yet there are hardly any 'homogenization' complaints for shooters with even the same weapon tropes showing up across different games. Trying to avoid homogenization at all costs stagnates job design as much as encouraging it.

I think the job action 'vocabulary' does need to be expanded. Mechanics like walking casts, walking channels, and some of the more explicit movement attacks like from PVP could be a great start to adding some much needed funk to jobs.

[Raraka]

If you havent yet, Shougun's thread is a good read to get a general idea of what it would be like to give flavour back to the jobs

If you were to remove the icons and animations from the jobs, and only were left with "attack 1, attack 2, attack 3" and so on, could you tell the difference between Scholar and Sage?, could you tell appart from Gunbreaker and Paladin? (Trick question, you could, because you have played them, but it would be quite hard for a casual)

[Zeastria]

They share core design - yes
But doesn't feel the same to play!
--> Different weaknesses, flow and strength.

(I enjoy SCH/AST but i dont enjoy SGE/WHM)

[Moqi]

Most jobs are a variation of build gauge=> spend it on big attack and the way they increase the gauge isn't that different. You can map out similar abilities to the same buttons and you don't even need to know exactly what you're pressing as long as you learned how one job works.

You feel like they're different enough, lots of people don't. There's really not much else to get, it's not that complicated. There are many ways to deal damage and SE only uses one and a half.

If you were to remove the icons and animations from the jobs, and only were left with "attack 1, attack 2, attack 3" and so on, could you tell the difference between Scholar and Sage?, could you tell appart from Gunbreaker and Paladin?

This sums it up perfectly.