FFXIV Healer Strike and the 'How would you fix it?' line

[WaxSw]

While many ideas sound cool on paper, I would dread them in-game. Having to juggle so many systems and resources will make the ceiling of a class extremely daunting and high. Pair that savage and ultimates and you are in for the vast majority that would not even dare to touch it. Savage and Ultimates are already daunting to jump into as a sprout, having this complex system will further push people away from those.

I do honestly think, there is nothing wrong with having a mix of complexity. It's not wrong to have a class that is easy to understand and play.

Also, what are these super complex classes for? which type of content?

That's the problem, is not a class, is an entire role that has been coddled by the devs and designed as "baby's first job".

These designs aren't really that complex and any player aspiring to handle an ultimate should be willing/capable of learning and mastering them, they really aren't more complex than tank and dps systems and they clear fine. Let alone how many of those systems mentioned are refinements of the previous existing systems of the game and we healed just fine with them.

It's fine having a low entry bar for a role, you want people to try it, but its also healthy having a high enough ceiling to make people stay, which is what the role is failing at on a spectacular way right now, and being a bit direct here you (as a general you, not particular) are not entitled to play the role perfectly optimal right from the beggining, if you want that it should be expected for you to put time and effort to learn and master the systems, like it happened on every good designed job we had.

[Kohashi]

That's the problem, is not a class, is an entire role that has been coddled by the devs and designed as "baby's first job".

These designs aren't really that complex and any player aspiring to handle an ultimate should be willing/capable of learning and mastering them, they really aren't more complex than tank and dps systems and they clear fine. Let alone how many of those systems mentioned are refinements of the previous existing systems of the game and we healed just fine with them.

It's fine having a low entry bar for a role, you want people to try it, but its also healthy having a high enough ceiling to make people stay, which is what the role is failing at on a spectacular way right now, and being a bit direct here you (as a general you, not particular) are not entitled to play the role perfectly optimal right from the beggining, if you want that it should be expected for you to put time and effort to learn and master the systems, like it happened on every good designed job we had.

Perhaps, but I do disagree with healers being an entry-level job.

In any case, I don't think making 10 bars filled with spells to juggle and systems will get people to stay. Complexity doesn't have to be resumed to how many spells you have and how many different buttons you push. And sure, let's say they make every single class an incredibly high ceiling to master. For a while it will keep ppl "happy" and then, people will master it, and they will say it's not complex enough anymore.

While I would love for SE to re-build/ redesign classes every couple to a few years I highly doubt they will do that considering how adverse they are to change and how much people end up crying over even small changes.

Also, the class complexity is just a symptom of a much bigger issue. You cannot just slap a band-aid (class redesign) and say everything will be fine.

[GartredZW]

In any case, I don't think making 10 bars filled with spells to juggle and systems will get people to stay. Complexity doesn't have to be resumed to how many spells you have and how many different buttons you push. And sure, let's say they make every single class an incredibly high ceiling to master. For a while it will keep ppl "happy" and then, people will master it, and they will say it's not complex enough anymore.

Can we please just throw out the idea that making players think at all will scare them into quitting entirely? It's a stupid idea, and I'm tired of dancing around the issue.
Take a look at any competitive game at all, and you'll see mountains of people who put in the time and effort to master every little nuance of their game. Why do they do this? Because it's fun of course. And every person who is good at the game was once a lowly level 1 struggling to keep GCD uptime against world mobs. It didn't scare them away, and the fear that it might isn't a good reason to ruin the fun for the rest of us. Can we stop pretending that having the same exact damage rotation from level 4 to level 100 is a good idea for a difficulty curve? What are people even doing through leveling if not learning how to play their class properly?
Furthermore, so what if a few players go "oh, I can't wrap my head around this. it's not for me"? Nothing can be for everyone. Not even this critically acclaimed MMORPG with a free trial up to level 70. Maybe some people just don't resonate with healers as a concept. Maybe some people just don't like tab targeting hotkey based combat. Are we going to start getting worried about losing out on that demographic and change the game to a first person shooter instead? And What of the healer main who watched their favorite role getting lobotomized into the ground to appeal to people who don't even like healers in the first place? Aren't you glad that you put in the time and effort to develop your skills in healing only to have some floor-licker whine about it being too hard, only for Square to decide that this is the mindset we need to cater to in order to create a better game.

My point being, People can adapt to a lot of things. Having a bit of complexity, or even a decent amount of complexity isn't going to hurt anyone. On the contrary, it will foster a large amount of dedicated players who put in the effort to squeeze every last bit of optimization they can out of their chosen job. Meanwhile, the casual who doesn't care about playing properly will just continue mashing broil and physick because they like the animation and don't care to read tooltips. This player isn't planning to play Extremes, Savages, or especially not Ultimates, So what does it matter that he can't be the best?

Also, Even if this casual player gets scared and logs off because pressing more than two buttons puts him into an anaphylactic shock, Why can't he just go play a different class without a complex rotation?
Seriously, we've got Gunbreaker and Dark Knight, which are known as the busy tanks as opposed to the simple tanks of Paladin and Warrior. Why can't we have White Mage be the simple healer with a simple rotation, and if you want complexity you play Scholar, Sage, or Astrologian? Remember, the main damaging rotation on all four healers right now is exactly the same. The only difference is that they get an extra button to press around burst windows, and Sage gets Phlegma, which you press twice every 80 seconds. riveting.

[ForsakenRoe]

While many ideas sound cool on paper, I would dread them in-game. Having to juggle so many systems and resources will make the ceiling of a class extremely daunting and high. Pair that savage and ultimates and you are in for the vast majority that would not even dare to touch it. Savage and Ultimates are already daunting to jump into as a sprout, having this complex system will further push people away from those.

I do honestly think, there is nothing wrong with having a mix of complexity. It's not wrong to have a class that is easy to understand and play.

Also, what are these super complex classes for? which type of content?

I understand that, and that's why I've tried to keep the ideas I've made here rather more 'tame' than what could be created (I've seen other people suggest massive overhauls that completely change the core design of each healer). But I do wonder if the perception that these additional systems (which I've tried to balance in such a way that they feel 'optional, for the sake of optimization only') would be too complex for something like an Ultimate, is because we're not used to having them, and suddenly being thrust into the deep end with their addition would feel overwhelming to some players? In a sense, the 'new player' would ironically have a much easier time with the additions, because they'd be learning each system one step at a time as they level, whereas we've got 100 levels of changes thrown at us as veteran players who have already reached the max level

These 'super complex classes' (again, debatable/subjective, I don't think any of these are any more complicated to execute than some of the Tanks) are intended to be for every level of skill, in every piece of content. You can choose to spam Cure2 and get through an EX roulette currently. You can press Succor 35 times in week 1 progression and still clear. These ideas wouldn't change that, or force the player to press their DPS actions more, merely add variety to which DPS actions are being pressed at what times. The example potencies are so close to the filler spell potency (eg Banish being only 40p stronger than Glare) specifically so that the player wouldn't be punished for 'doing the rotation wrong'. It's all intended to be 'tools to optimize around, but ultimately not necessary to clear content', and with it being 'optional', it simply means more potential fun to be had in lower-skill level content like EX roulette

That's the problem, is not a class, is an entire role that has been coddled by the devs and designed as "baby's first job".

These designs aren't really that complex and any player aspiring to handle an ultimate should be willing/capable of learning and mastering them, they really aren't more complex than tank and dps systems and they clear fine. Let alone how many of those systems mentioned are refinements of the previous existing systems of the game and we healed just fine with them.

Further to the whole 'it might be a perception issue, that too much change is happening at once (from the POV of max level players) with these designs', I think what would help solve that would be if SE had a better update implementation schedule. Let's take the WHM, as an example. Rather than doing all of the changes at once, SE could break it up into 'Phases'. Phase 1 could be implemented in, say, 7.3, which would contain the changes to the Aero/Dia duration, and the addition of Banish as a new attack. In 7.4 or 7.5, Phase 2 could add the lower level versions of skills (Protect > PI, Divine Seal > Temperance, etc), and if SE wants to further soften the Pure/Barrier split, implementing Stoneskin/Graniteskin and the Afflatus upgrades could occur at this time. Finally, in 8.0 with the expansion release (due to the UI elements required for it), the Nature's Vigilance gauge, the spender, and the associated 'refund attacks' (Quake, Flood, Tornado) could be implemented.

Then, the same applies to the other healers. By adding things in smaller chunks, it allows the devs to A: break up the workload so as not to overburden their pipeline, B: get feedback on each portion's balance as they go (allowing them to adjust potencies/CDs for balance alongside the implementation of the next phase), and C: getting 'something' out sooner rather than saying 'wait 2 years and see what happens' would give a massive show to disillusioned vets of the role that 'we are listening, we are changing things, this is just a taste of what's to come', and for a lot of said vets, a change that shows that there's something coming down the pipeline would be enough to get them saying 'Hey, these Phase 1 changes for WHM (Dia duration change, Banish added) have helped the WHM gameplay out, and there's more coming in another patch? Well, this change was good, so I guess I'll stick around and see what they're cooking'

edit (ough):

In any case, I don't think making 10 bars filled with spells to juggle and systems will get people to stay. Complexity doesn't have to be resumed to how many spells you have and how many different buttons you push. And sure, let's say they make every single class an incredibly high ceiling to master. For a while it will keep ppl "happy" and then, people will master it, and they will say it's not complex enough anymore.

Also, the class complexity is just a symptom of a much bigger issue. You cannot just slap a band-aid (class redesign) and say everything will be fine.

1: I'm not asking for 10 bars filled with spells to juggle. These designs add, I think the highest button count was '3 more than DT has' with SCH. Reducing button count on SCH in particular feels like a challenge, because all of its actions feel very 'it sucks, but used together with other tools, they become greater than the sum of their parts', but there's a couple of things that could go. Like Repose. And Rescue. And to an extent, if MP balancing were changed up to support it, Lucid Dreaming. For WHM, I'd only need to add 2 buttons if SE acquiesced to the plan to add a Barrier-based Lily spender. If Stoneskin and Graniteskin didn't make the cut, then it'd be +-0, since the 2 buttons I'd add (Blessing of the Elementals, Banish) would be counteracted by the 2 I'd remove (by having Cure upgrade to Cure2, and Medica to Medica2 (and then Medica3)).

2: I'm not sure anyone (in numbers big enough to matter) is saying that a high-ceiling class is 'not complex enough' when they 'master' it. EG, in EW, Black Mages at the top of their game didn't say 'oh BLM is too simple for my massive brain', they praised how versatile it was, how many options it had to adapt, etc. I also don't remember anyone complaining that MNK was 'too simple' when TK rotation accidentally appeared in Stormblood, but I do remember A: people who learned TK saying 'its cool that we have an optional, highly technical alternative that gives a very small (and ultimately unrequired) DPS gain' and B: people who didn't want to learn TK saying 'I don't want to learn this highly technical rotation' but not realizing that they could still parse orange with the standard rotation (source: I raided with a guy who did exactly this back in SB), and definitely not needing to learn 'the highly technical alternative rotation' to clear the fights, even in week 1 gear (and in MNK's case, this was back when everyone was going on and on about needing NIN DRG BRD MCH/SMN comp cos 'its meta')

3: SE slapped a 'bandaid' (class redesign) onto SMN because of how people felt about it in SHB, and now it gets criticism for its simplicity pretty often. I think it's entirely possible that the bandaid of a class redesign can have the opposite effect, and raise the perception of the job, if said design is 'good'. Whether the ones I've made here are 'good' is subjective, but I'd like to believe they would offer more gameplay for the healers than what is currently on offer. Additionally, one of the big issues with the current healers is that they have a lot of similarity in their kits, especially SCH/SGE having literal copies of certain actions (eg Ixochole/Indom are same potency, E-Prog/Concitation are the same potency of barrier, etc). So, if a player were to 'master' SCH in the current game, and swap to SGE for reclears, they're already most of the way to 'mastery' of SGE due to that similarity. But, with these redesigns, SCH has stancedancing to master, and SGE has Kardia interplay to master, and the two are much more divorced from one another in their 'optimal gameplay', even with still sharing some actions (eg Ixochole/Indom), because for example, SCH would be able to manipulate that Indom via their Strategies to make it heal for more, or to apply a barrier instead. Conversely, SGE would be able to apply the 'lossless' barrier that SCH can (via Defensive-Indom) to the party over the course of 4 GCD attacks (via a combination of Zoe and Pankardia), but that requires A: being able to hit the enemy, and B: 4 GCDs of setup time. And that means having to think about how you'd do the fight very differently between all four healers, extending the 'Time To Mastery' somewhat

[Kohashi]

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1. Perhaps you didn't specifically say it, but it's a tune that constantly plays when a class complexity topic arises or is discussed. As I said, there are some interesting ideas on paper, and it would be nice for SE to have a lot more creative liberty with classes rather than localize pre-existing ones from other games.

2. The funny thing about BLM is that while doing triple transpose was insanely difficult and you could pat yourself on the back for managing it, the return of it was hardly even worth it. More of a bragging right than anything else. There's a reason why certain classes are less preferred in certain fights. How can you ensure all classes are equally designed and offer the ability to play them regardless of difficulty or fight design?

3. I mean, perhaps it's a simple class but it still delivers what it was intended. SMN is not even all that popular in high-end content, and not because it's too simple but because there are better options that fulfill the designed role better, *cough* Picto *cough*.
As for SGE vs SCH, maybe their core idea is the same but they are really not all that alike beyond the fact they can shield.

For me, having reliable disposable heal/mits is important. Your design might work if the fights were adjusted to accommodate that change but the way some fights are designed now it will simply make certain classes a pain to deal with in the end content especially Ultimates where mechanics are very fast and you need to be precise. Nobody has time to shuffle a million cards and manage 10 bars.

"What does 'sprout' means here, though? Inexperienced? First timer? Or literally players with sprout icon?
I think it's fair to assume when you decided to step into these 'high end contents' you are required to have decent proficiency (not full mastery) of your chosen job, healers included."

I can mean one of those things or all of them. As for the rest, go in PF for a while and you will be surprised with the findings.

[ZephyrMenodora]

That's the problem, is not a class, is an entire role that has been coddled by the devs and designed as "baby's first job".

For a lot of content, baby's first job is the tank. It's just so forgiving.

Absolutely easiest time I have playing is being 'off tank' for 8 or 24 man contents where I am just an immortal half-dps that doesn't need to move out of mechanics.