Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

[BabyYoda]

Warrior can lost.2 other mitigation or healing skill and it will be playable as a high tier tank

[Somnolence]

The only proof I've seen is that WAR's sustain kit is too overpowered and needs to be nerfed.

If we assume jobs are balanced for high end raiding, then I wonder, how much WAR sustain matters there actually?

The only relevant resource it can save is Aetherflow stacks, no? For other resources if healers are not running out of them then saving some does nothing, WHMs might want to dump lilies anyway etc.

BW might add safety vs boss autos so healers don't need to babysit as much. However if everybody is pressing same buttons based on healer/mit plan irregardless if tank is WAR or not then BW/equilibrium/shake sustain does not matter in practice.

For all the complaints of lack of self-sustain, how much attention does DRK MT requires in comparison to PLD and GNB?

The real OP thing about WAR was - and still is - Holmgang CD. Getting to use it 5 times in DSR feels ridiculous. And the presence of this ability is what is causing differences in mit plan.

[CKNovel]

And importantly, again: It's your problem that you cannot understand/see/accept BW being OP.

No, I understand Bloodwhetting is Overpowered.
But something overpowered doesn't automatically call for a nerf, see Helldivers 2 who did their best to nerf everything they felt was OP and player engagement fell despite getting new content on weekly basis.
If everything is in line with the rest of the game, the game becomes boring.

I want to see more OP tools, more situation where AST's Macrocosmos denying an entire mechanic.
I want to see the stacks removed from Liturgy of the Bell and healing popping off every time there's damage taken.
Ninja assassinating non-boss ennemies.
Dancer charming an add to fight for the party.
Sage being able to grant an invincible effect to an ally...

If everyone's OP, no one is.

[Supersnow845]

If we assume jobs are balanced for high end raiding, then I wonder, how much WAR sustain matters there actually?

The only relevant resource it can save is Aetherflow stacks, no? For other resources if healers are not running out of them then saving some does nothing, WHMs might want to dump lilies anyway etc.

BW might add safety vs boss autos so healers don't need to babysit as much. However if everybody is pressing same buttons based on healer/mit plan irregardless if tank is WAR or not then BW/equilibrium/shake sustain does not matter in practice.

For all the complaints of lack of self-sustain, how much attention does DRK MT requires in comparison to PLD and GNB?

The real OP thing about WAR was - and still is - Holmgang CD. Getting to use it 5 times in DSR feels ridiculous. And the presence of this ability is what is causing differences in mit plan.

It saves a lot more than aetherflow stacks. This is where the problem of tank sustain starts to affect high end content. The Non DRK tanks aren’t “saving” healer resources they are just basically outright removing the need for single target healing to exist in the first place outside of the very rare case of healing a DPS that make a mistake that didn’t kill them

If you look at a breakdown of healing relieved by a tank in a savage fight very very little of it is the healers wealth of single target CD’s, or if it is it amounts to overheal to just burn things like celestial intersection because it’s better than not casting them

The idea of a tank and healer coordinating a single target healing and mitigation plan around autos is dead, the tank just doesn’t need the healer to shrug off dedicated tank single target damage

No, I understand Bloodwhetting is Overpowered.
But something overpowered doesn't automatically call for a nerf, see Helldivers 2 who did their best to nerf everything they felt was OP and player engagement fell despite getting new content on weekly basis.
If everything is in line with the rest of the game, the game becomes boring.

I want to see more OP tools, more situation where AST's Macrocosmos denying an entire mechanic.
I want to see the stacks removed from Liturgy of the Bell and healing popping off every time there's damage taken.
Ninja assassinating non-boss ennemies.
Dancer charming an add to fight for the party.
Sage being able to grant an invincible effect to an ally...

If everyone's OP, no one is.

This implies that a nerf to out of line sustain on tanks would be followed by other nerfs just to try to nail everything into the ground. Be honest if we nerfed WAR and PLD’s sustain what would you say is the next most obvious target for a nerf. PCT’s burst? Spreadlo? VPR’s damage to complexity ratio? PCT’s AOE damage?

This is an isolated case of a clearly out of line set of abilities (BW chief amongst them), they aren’t just going to continue randomly nerfing from there because there is no clearly defined path of other things that need to be nerfed, the only other thing anyone remotely agrees on needing to be nerfed is arguably PCT’s damage but even that’s divisive

[Alice_Rivers]

I've said before, I'll say it again, there's no need to go nerfing everything into the ground because one or two jobs in one role are too powerful. FF14, or any mmo for that matter, doesn't need esports balancing. PCT doesn't really bother me, SMN bothers me because it sucks to play but that isn't PCT's fault. DRK bothers me a bit because it's damage output doesn't reflect it's lack of sustain vs other tanks, that is mitigated by tuning PLD and WAR but not fixed by it and I would prefer see DRK get a damage buff rather than a sustain buff but I'm not a tank.

Similarly as I've said before, the tank sustain problem in FF14 is a two part problem, there's the part where WAR is completely self sufficient and PLD ranges from mostly self sufficient to actually self sufficient and there's the part where damage in dungeons is way too low - especially tankbusters and stacks. When a level 100 WHM with only Oblation and Temperance mit in play can take a tankbuster for 77k (see image, don't mind the deaths, people went into the previous mechanic with 3-5 vulns each) I think that tankbuster is woefully inadequate - In what way is that a threat to a tank?

So I suggest that the most egregious of tank self-sustain should be curbed. BW could be reduced either to one heal per GCD or I think preferably, since fates exist and I think some high end content has adds(?), limit it to three targets. I'm not entirely sure what to do with SIO, maybe half the regen and/or tie it to WAR's gauge? Could do something similar with PLD's shield - Cover and whatsit are both gauge abilities, why not add the shield and half the heal? That would help prevent these two jobs covering entire raidwides without affecting their shields and give WAR at least a trade-off against their dps. Simultaneously, increase damage in dungeons by 50-100% (this could be spread across higher damage values and attack frequency), especially for tankbusters, maybe up those by closer to 150-200% non-tanks should never survive them and tanks should actually have to mit them to live, healers would also then have to care about a tankbuster. I'd also point to previous suggestions of mobs inflicting status effects, etc since that would also make life more interesting.

Also boss autos during mechanics should make a return.

[Carighan]

If everyone's OP, no one is.

This is a common fallacy to fall into, but not actually true. Not in games with a non-PvP component (and even there it can be argued that this does not hold true). Overall power level matters. Right now, the game is very easy, but perhaps not for the right reasons. Savage fights already tend to cause wipes as soon as 1 person fails 1 mechanic, so it's all balance on a knife's edge. It's still incredibly easy, owing to how easy-going most jobs (not just tanks) have it with their overall gameplay:

* Tanks take very little tank-y damage and infrequently so (most of the the time the boss is busy casting their next mechanic).
* Healers barely get to use their healing kit, and importantly when they do, against defined "Press button X now" moments, not in a reactionary way like what usually constitutes the healer job in most games.
* Healers barely have to acknowledge their mana bar if not recently rezzed.
* Casters except BLM really don't care they got a mana bar.
* Most jobs in fact might as well lose it, I'd argue the only two jobs still interested in it are BLM and DRK, for quite unique reasons.
* Melee uptime has large been trivialized.
* Caster casttime likewise.

Etc. That's not nearly the whole list. Much has been developed out of the game, and tanks being largely self-sufficient is just part of it. And notably, you cannot fix this by making even more jobs even stronger. Quite the opposite. Quite a lot so. By now, FFXIV could use far-reaching nerfs across the board, to basically every single portion of every single job design elements.

[CKNovel]

If we assume jobs are balanced for high end raiding, then I wonder, how much WAR sustain matters there actually?

The real OP thing about WAR was - and still is - Holmgang CD. Getting to use it 5 times in DSR feels ridiculous. And the presence of this ability is what is causing differences in mit plan.

Actually, not a lot. Sustain is massively overrated and always falls a lot in overhealing, if you trade the healing for mitigation or increased HP it would just make Warrior even more powerful.
What I would agree on is that WAR's Shake it off HoT is unnecessary. In high end raiding it can represent 30% of heal generated by WAR and it shouldn't be its role.

Agree on Holmgang, I don't think I've seen anyone defending it, even Warrior mains agree for it to be nerfed.

There's no need to go nerfing everything into the ground because one or two jobs in one role are too powerful.
Similarly as I've said before, the tank sustain problem in FF14 is a two part problem, tank self-sufficience&lack of damage.
So I suggest that the most egregious of tank self-sustain should be curbed.

Boss autos during mechanics should make a return.

Shake it off shouldn't regen in my opinion, the heal&shield on cast are perfectly enough.
The trade SIO for Beast Gauge would mean the ability isn't pressed. We have Clemency as a perfect example, it's very strong but a DPS loss, therefore it's never used.
In WoW, the trade works but that's because Protection Warrior is always at the risk of overcapping rage, generated by so many RNG elements, which is not a thing in XIV but I believe we could manage to get something similar, thought that's another debate.

You could move the lifesteal effect from Bloodwhetting to Inner Release and have Bloodwhetting increasing max HP instead.
I personally believe it wouldn't change the Warrior at all in dungeon and would just make it even more powerfull in high-end content but that's a start.

[Alice_Rivers]

Shake it off shouldn't regen in my opinion, the heal&shield on cast are perfectly enough.
The trade SIO for Beast Gauge would mean the ability isn't pressed. We have Clemency as a perfect example, it's very strong but a DPS loss, therefore it's never used.
In WoW, the trade works but that's because Protection Warrior is always at the risk of overcapping rage, generated by so many RNG elements, which is not a thing in XIV but I believe we could manage to get something similar, thought that's another debate.

There is that issue, disappointing as it is, I think having to make choices like that enriches the experience. But I do think that's a reasonable change to SIO.

You could move the lifesteal effect from Bloodwhetting to Inner Release and have Bloodwhetting increasing max HP instead.
I personally believe it wouldn't change the Warrior at all in dungeon and would just make it even more powerfull in high-end content but that's a start.

I'm glad you mentioned this as it lead me to look at the WAR job guide and some of those tooltips are very long. On topic though, BW appears to be a linear upgrade from Raw Intuition, in which case moving the heal to Inner Release would presumably make RI just 10% mit? And still sharing a cooldown with Nascent Flash which I think a reasonable change would be to make it only heal the target rather than the target AND the caster. Or we could use the Clemency model so the WAR gets 50% but I think better to make it just heal the target (I don't see anything that suggests a WAR can't cast it on themselves).

I think it would be an improvement though, to make it 1200 healing per 60s rather than 2400 per 60s, BW also makes more sense as a mit and/or shield than as a heal.

[Lyth]

Let me see if I understand this discussion correctly.

No, I understand Bloodwhetting is Overpowered.

WAR's Shake it off HoT is unnecessary. In high end raiding it can represent 30% of heal generated by WAR and it shouldn't be its role.

Agree on Holmgang, I don't think I've seen anyone defending it, even Warrior mains agree for it to be nerfed.

So are we saying that there's a general player consensus that Bloodwhetting, Shake it Off, and Holmgang are all overpowered? If that's the case, I don't even think that there's an argument to be had here.

[CKNovel]

Let me see if I understand this discussion correctly.
So are we saying that there's a general player consensus that Bloodwhetting, Shake it Off, and Holmgang are all overpowered? If that's the case, I don't even think that there's an argument to be had here.

Holmgang is overpowered and you have to dig incredibly deep to find someone that find it overpowered in a good way.
It's not overpowered in a fun way, it just means you have more invuln and I don't think the community has a positive perception of invulns altogether.

Shake it Off's HoT makes no sense, it's there, it's free healing and I get it's there to help with multiple hit raidwides and to compete with PLD's passage of arm, but that's something to see on healers.
If we are arguing about tanks replacing Healers, Shake it off is definitely the biggest culprit. It's not overpowered but I don't think it should exist, tanks shouldn't have party wide healing, same goes with PLD's Divine veil.
In my opinion, If SQEX doesn't want to touch SIO&DV power, they should replace the healing effect with a 5% mitigation, just a bigger shield or max HP which are better trades anyway.

Bloodwhetting is overpowered but only in very specific situation where being overpowered doesn't matter or that can be heavily outgeared.
I'm for keeping the overpowered effect but I'm open to moving the lifesteal to a longer cooldown such as Inner Release or Thrill of Battle.
It won't change the status of tanks and I'm not SQEX balance team anyway, in the end it's still debating about trash pack.