Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

[Rithy255]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LwKKzmJhxE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lHZTHldvH3k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VwejQM7mUOA

Next question

How is that proving them wrong they are literally level 100 in the video??? I'm sure a healer could solo a EW dungeon at level 100.

[Supersnow845]

How is that proving them wrong they are literally level 100 in the video??? I'm sure a healer could solo a EW dungeon at level 100.

If you specifically want synced then here, that has like every dungeon solo synced

https://www.youtube.com/live/2kAmQpV...l5M5pmduk3UMMf

The point is the dungeons are a joke in the face of the current tank sustain, you arent soloing it even unsynced on a non tank because FPS don’t have the sustain and healers don’t have the damage

[Rithy255]

If you specifically want synced then here, that has like every dungeon solo synced

https://www.youtube.com/live/2kAmQpV...l5M5pmduk3UMMf

The point is the dungeons are a joke in the face of the current tank sustain, you arent soloing it even unsynced on a non tank because FPS don’t have the sustain and healers don’t have the damage

Wait until you watch Solo Only videos on ARR dungeons being solo'd by a Warrior before they get any sustain outside of their combo (and potions).

I even remember pretty much doing the first half of the 56 dungeon without a healer or any dps with heals (smn/rdm) thehealer left and it took a long time for a new one to join... this was ON PALADIN before clemency is available, I don't know if you can recognize that sustain doesn't actually play a massive role into why healer feels bad to play.

I don't know what you're actually trying to prove by saying warrior can solo dungeons... yeah and? a tank doing a challenge run of taking all day to solo a dungeon doesn't have anything to do with why healers are bad. This is way beyond not optimal to do.

I don't even want to defend blood whetting here, i think the cooldown makes wall to wall boring for the job, Theirs some valid criticism that the cooldown is too strong, but then you post about how most sustain on tanks is bad.

[Supersnow845]

Wait until you watch Solo Only videos on ARR dungeons being solo'd by a Warrior before they get any sustain outside of their combo (and potions).

I even remember pretty much doing the first half of the 56 dungeon without a healer or any dps with heals (smn/rdm) thehealer left and it took a long time for a new one to join... this was ON PALADIN before clemency is available, I don't know if you can recognize that sustain doesn't actually play a massive role into why healer feels bad to play.

I don't know what you're actually trying to prove by saying warrior can solo dungeons... yeah and? a tank doing a challenge run of taking all day to solo a dungeon doesn't have anything to do with why healers are bad. This is way beyond not optimal to do.

I don't even want to defend blood whetting here, i think the cooldown makes wall to wall boring for the job, Theirs some valid criticism that the cooldown is too strong, but then you post about how most sustain on tanks is bad.

Because the entire context of the discussion you are ignoring involves CK specifically asking us to show them a video of tanks soloing dungeons because the believe the WOW sustain nerf is totally different to modern 14. If you want to discuss different aspects of the tanks sustain problems that’s a different discussion

It’s weird you know my past of wanting sustain as a whole nerfed but somehow also think I only think about one point at a time, I’ve discussed how to fix the healers as nauseum, I’m not just here to ruin the tanks because like I said a nerf to sustain makes tanks more enjoyable to me

[CKNovel]

Because the entire context of the discussion you are ignoring involves CK specifically asking us to show them a video of tanks soloing dungeons because the believe the WOW sustain nerf is totally different to modern 14. If you want to discuss different aspects of the tanks sustain problems that’s a different discussion

I admit, I'm surprised someone managed to do it.
And yes, if you pay attention, those are two complete different situation, Bloodwhetting isn't the only actor, kiting is also involved as well as Holmgang, Rampart and Vengeance and we're far from pulling the whole dungeon.
But I'm convinced enough to ask for a War sustain nerf, they can start by lowering Shake it off, Damnation and Equilibrium HoT and add a 60s on Holmgang.

The point is the dungeons are a joke in the face of the current tank sustain

Careful now, you wouldn't want me to ask you to back your claims by showing me the same feat on PLD and GNB as well, yes?

Nobody except you needs to do that. This is like when talking to a flat-earther: Reality does not care for your silly requirements to be convinced and your inability to reconcile your predetermined (mis-)understanding with it.

Except the original claim is that Bloodwhetting is too overpowered and needs to be nerfed, which I haven't seen proof of it.
The only proof I've seen is that WAR's sustain kit is too overpowered and needs to be nerfed.
My claims is that it's overpowered but fine as it is.

[Carighan]

Except the original claim is that Bloodwhetting is too overpowered and needs to be nerfed, which I haven't seen proof of it.
The only proof I've seen is that WAR's sustain kit is too overpowered and needs to be nerfed.
My claims is that it's overpowered but fine as it is.

And again: The reality of Bloodwhetting being overpowered and the cornerstone of why Warrior has superior sustain to other tanks does not care for your mis-interpretation. Reality does not conform to your wrong beliefs and has no obligation to try convince you otherwise.

Would it be possible to balance Warriors by applying a variety of changes to various abilities until they are no longer the simple choice for MT? Sure. Would it be worlds easier to just nerf Bloodwhetting? Of course. Could it make sense to intentionally leave it overpowered and rather make everything else underpowered to create a certain game-feel centered around Bloodwhetting? Maybe, depends on what the devs want. Cool point of differnetiation.

But importantly: This would not make BW any less overpowered. It would just mean that it's OP intentionally, and kept that way for design purposes and balanced by other UP stuff.

And importantly, again: It's your problem that you cannot understand/see/accept BW being OP.

[CKNovel]

And importantly, again: It's your problem that you cannot understand/see/accept BW being OP.

No, I understand Bloodwhetting is Overpowered.
But something overpowered doesn't automatically call for a nerf, see Helldivers 2 who did their best to nerf everything they felt was OP and player engagement fell despite getting new content on weekly basis.
If everything is in line with the rest of the game, the game becomes boring.

I want to see more OP tools, more situation where AST's Macrocosmos denying an entire mechanic.
I want to see the stacks removed from Liturgy of the Bell and healing popping off every time there's damage taken.
Ninja assassinating non-boss ennemies.
Dancer charming an add to fight for the party.
Sage being able to grant an invincible effect to an ally...

If everyone's OP, no one is.

[Carighan]

If everyone's OP, no one is.

This is a common fallacy to fall into, but not actually true. Not in games with a non-PvP component (and even there it can be argued that this does not hold true). Overall power level matters. Right now, the game is very easy, but perhaps not for the right reasons. Savage fights already tend to cause wipes as soon as 1 person fails 1 mechanic, so it's all balance on a knife's edge. It's still incredibly easy, owing to how easy-going most jobs (not just tanks) have it with their overall gameplay:

* Tanks take very little tank-y damage and infrequently so (most of the the time the boss is busy casting their next mechanic).
* Healers barely get to use their healing kit, and importantly when they do, against defined "Press button X now" moments, not in a reactionary way like what usually constitutes the healer job in most games.
* Healers barely have to acknowledge their mana bar if not recently rezzed.
* Casters except BLM really don't care they got a mana bar.
* Most jobs in fact might as well lose it, I'd argue the only two jobs still interested in it are BLM and DRK, for quite unique reasons.
* Melee uptime has large been trivialized.
* Caster casttime likewise.

Etc. That's not nearly the whole list. Much has been developed out of the game, and tanks being largely self-sufficient is just part of it. And notably, you cannot fix this by making even more jobs even stronger. Quite the opposite. Quite a lot so. By now, FFXIV could use far-reaching nerfs across the board, to basically every single portion of every single job design elements.

[Somnolence]

The only proof I've seen is that WAR's sustain kit is too overpowered and needs to be nerfed.

If we assume jobs are balanced for high end raiding, then I wonder, how much WAR sustain matters there actually?

The only relevant resource it can save is Aetherflow stacks, no? For other resources if healers are not running out of them then saving some does nothing, WHMs might want to dump lilies anyway etc.

BW might add safety vs boss autos so healers don't need to babysit as much. However if everybody is pressing same buttons based on healer/mit plan irregardless if tank is WAR or not then BW/equilibrium/shake sustain does not matter in practice.

For all the complaints of lack of self-sustain, how much attention does DRK MT requires in comparison to PLD and GNB?

The real OP thing about WAR was - and still is - Holmgang CD. Getting to use it 5 times in DSR feels ridiculous. And the presence of this ability is what is causing differences in mit plan.

[Supersnow845]

If we assume jobs are balanced for high end raiding, then I wonder, how much WAR sustain matters there actually?

The only relevant resource it can save is Aetherflow stacks, no? For other resources if healers are not running out of them then saving some does nothing, WHMs might want to dump lilies anyway etc.

BW might add safety vs boss autos so healers don't need to babysit as much. However if everybody is pressing same buttons based on healer/mit plan irregardless if tank is WAR or not then BW/equilibrium/shake sustain does not matter in practice.

For all the complaints of lack of self-sustain, how much attention does DRK MT requires in comparison to PLD and GNB?

The real OP thing about WAR was - and still is - Holmgang CD. Getting to use it 5 times in DSR feels ridiculous. And the presence of this ability is what is causing differences in mit plan.

It saves a lot more than aetherflow stacks. This is where the problem of tank sustain starts to affect high end content. The Non DRK tanks aren’t “saving” healer resources they are just basically outright removing the need for single target healing to exist in the first place outside of the very rare case of healing a DPS that make a mistake that didn’t kill them

If you look at a breakdown of healing relieved by a tank in a savage fight very very little of it is the healers wealth of single target CD’s, or if it is it amounts to overheal to just burn things like celestial intersection because it’s better than not casting them

The idea of a tank and healer coordinating a single target healing and mitigation plan around autos is dead, the tank just doesn’t need the healer to shrug off dedicated tank single target damage

No, I understand Bloodwhetting is Overpowered.
But something overpowered doesn't automatically call for a nerf, see Helldivers 2 who did their best to nerf everything they felt was OP and player engagement fell despite getting new content on weekly basis.
If everything is in line with the rest of the game, the game becomes boring.

I want to see more OP tools, more situation where AST's Macrocosmos denying an entire mechanic.
I want to see the stacks removed from Liturgy of the Bell and healing popping off every time there's damage taken.
Ninja assassinating non-boss ennemies.
Dancer charming an add to fight for the party.
Sage being able to grant an invincible effect to an ally...

If everyone's OP, no one is.

This implies that a nerf to out of line sustain on tanks would be followed by other nerfs just to try to nail everything into the ground. Be honest if we nerfed WAR and PLD’s sustain what would you say is the next most obvious target for a nerf. PCT’s burst? Spreadlo? VPR’s damage to complexity ratio? PCT’s AOE damage?

This is an isolated case of a clearly out of line set of abilities (BW chief amongst them), they aren’t just going to continue randomly nerfing from there because there is no clearly defined path of other things that need to be nerfed, the only other thing anyone remotely agrees on needing to be nerfed is arguably PCT’s damage but even that’s divisive