Concerns Regarding DPS Balance: Physical Ranged, Red Mage, and Summoner

[Sylvain]

So how to solve movement tax for summoner?

There are three options
- Reworking burst phase
- Reworking Titans
- Adding new summons


Additionnally
- Make RuinIV a cast
- Make summon a cast

The current issue is that, beside Titan to some extent, turning any "instant" to "cast" makes the SMN much less mobile than people realize. For real just try. Play summoner but do something like "I cannot move at all during this ability as if you were casting. You'll be shocked to see how fast your mobility goes down. (It's fun tho). Therefor, simply turning instant to cast is tricky and can swiftly turn SMN from a "range" to a "BLM from HW"

Reworking burst phase
Basically, make Pheonix/Baha/Sol not full of instant but rather a mix of cast and instant. This could also be an interesting way to make each of the 3 burst phase more differant than "the visual changes".

Reworking Titan
Basically making that his emerald rite is a 1.5s cast instead of an instant.
Because the recast is 2.5s, this still leaves amples time for weaving and basically turns it into a PIC doing light painting for a few gcd.
This wouldn't work on Garuda as 1.5s makes for a weird and unpleasant slide cast. Also, Garuda already has slipstream as a cast. (even if we use swift cast, that's irrelevant)

Adding more summons
By adding more summon, you can have a broader range of "static summons" and "free like the wind" summons. Assuming a "mobility level". 0 being "100% cast" and 5 being "100% instant", what we currently have is :
5: Titan
3~4 : Garuda
1~2 : Ifrit
0 : none

By adding Levi Shiva (We become icy white!) and Ramuh, we can have 6 clear level of mobility. 0 being "0 instant" and feeling the gap between all those.

Summon become available only after all 6 have been used. So every 2 mins a SMN would need to summon all 6.
With 6 levels of mobility, the player has agency on which usmmon to use where and can thus save all the movement one (Garuda/Titan) for specific moment and dump the turret summon else where.

This would be the most welcomed one and have the greatest impact as the intended design "choose where you put the difficult summon (ifrit)" would feel more alive.

From a UI pov it could simply be done by adding 3 new buttons or a single one which swaps the summon. For instance.
You have [Ifrit, Titan, Garuda]. when you press "Alternate summon, 10s ogcd".
They turn to [Shiva, Leviathan, Ramuh]. Which would be only a single button.

*As a side preference for the lolz*
I would see
4: Shiva - You turn to ShivaMode (since she's more of a phase change) and you have a melee combo with positional which you finish with a spell finisher. Everything is instant but you have the melee requirement.
1 : Leviathan - Raise the Tide! Each subsequent cast the cast and recast are longer. 0s/1s -> 1.5s/2.0s -> 2.5/3s -> 3.5/4.0s . Additionnally you have whirlpool, a forward dash ogcd dealing no damage. 2 charges.
0: Ramuh - First it works like a Ten-Chi-Jin. Any movement stops the phase.
When entering Ramuh mode, you gain 1-3 "electric charge". You have 2 spells, "Charge" instant-1.5 recast, and "Convert" instant-1s recast. Convert consumes the electric charge. Each consummed charge creates a floating lightning orb around you.
Charge grants you 1-5 "electric charges". However they don't stack so f you use "charge" before you've converted all the one you had, they're lost. You will always be able to reach 7 charges no matter what you start with. You have 3 sources of electric charge. 1-3 from the initial cast and 4-6 from the 2 casts of "charge". The rest is you converting those charges. Once you reach 7 charges or if you move. Charge becomes "Discharge" and deal X potency per floating orb. Discharging at 7 grants a small bonus. Discharge is always a Crit DH
Due to the rapid recast, this requires sharp focus but specifically because you cannot move, this is meant to be done while the boss is doing absolutely nothing and thus you can direct all your focus on the fast paced mechanic. Ramuh has effectively 0 movement. You're a turret for 10s and 10s worth of DPS results in some very spiky damage visually.

This would result in
0: Ramuh (Ten-Chi-Jin fast paced)
1: Leviathan (100% cast but you can move and dash around)
2: Ifrit (2 big cast 2 movement, in melee)
3: Garuda (1 very big cast and instants)
4: Shiva (all instant but melee)
5: Titan (full instant)

With this, you wouldn't be able to spend 90% of time with instant because you'd have to choose moment where you wouldn't be able to move much. Basically, on top of ifrit you also have to place Ramuh and Leviathan which are much worse. Shiva has great mobility but isn't suited for all moment as you want to hit positionals. Recklessly using Garuda Shiva and Titan in a row would result in a very rough min after your major summon. And vice versa.


Additionnally
RuinIV could be made a cast... not much but that's still a thing

Summoning could be a 2.5-3s cast. The issue with that would be that summoning occur at fixed moment. This would make SMN the only caster with very restrictive cast every 15s. While it would adress the issue I believe this to be something that should NOT be done.

The most reasonable first step would be to make Titan spell a 1.5s cast.
1.5s is short enough to allow for a decent mobility like a PIC or Healer. Not good enough if you need to zoom around, but good enough for most regular movement.

However I insist, people understestimate how "even that" can make for a rather strict gameplay. Unlike RDM, BLM and PIC, you never have "on demand" instant. You have on demand "phase". IT's a bit like AST with light speed. Sometime you just need a single spell, like a xeno/miracle in white, not a full blown 15s worth of instant.

[Sunako]

So how to solve movement tax for summoner?

I already have solution for that in another thread. Make them "caster" again.

- Every summon become OGCD, every summon would trigger ruin 4 instant cast

- Remove all basic gem attacks and bring back 2,5sec ruin 3 cast as basic filler. Just keep special gem attacks, but change all of them to become ogcd. Garuda have one strong aoe dot, titan have one strong initial attack, ifrit gap closer

[Sunako]

Here the thing : you can't remove raise from RDM because :
- RDM always had raise and heal since the job system was introduced into FF Serie
- FFXIV Lore wise : RDM must have heal and raise

What if RDM can keep raise, but you can only use it outside combat like paladin during 2.0?

[Khryseis_Astra]

Summon become available only after all 6 have been used. So every 2 mins a SMN would need to summon all 6.
With 6 levels of mobility, the player has agency on which usmmon to use where and can thus save all the movement one (Garuda/Titan) for specific moment and dump the turret summon else where.

This would be the most welcomed one and have the greatest impact as the intended design "choose where you put the difficult summon (ifrit)" would feel more alive.

From a UI pov it could simply be done by adding 3 new buttons or a single one which swaps the summon. For instance.
You have [Ifrit, Titan, Garuda]. when you press "Alternate summon, 10s ogcd".
They turn to [Shiva, Leviathan, Ramuh]. Which would be only a single button.

I do like a lot of this… while I’m of the opinion that instant or fast casts are still in fact casts, and don’t really see the need to burden us with longer cast times when we’re already “taxed” for our rez, I’d put up with just about anything to get my other 3 elemental summons!

At any rate, putting the summons on the gems made it easy from a UI perspective like you said. All that needs to be done is have them switch to the other set of gems when they’re ready to be used. I like the idea of switching between two “teams” that are more or less equivalent potency-wise, but that the main reason to choose one or the other at any given time would be the particular mechanics involved. You can do this to a minor extent now, by saving Ifrit to line up with a good time for your jump-in action, but giving us the other 3 summons with unique abilities could help it feel like you have more flexibility and variety to the rotation. One idea I’ve seen that I like is splitting the 6 summons into astral/umbral teams and having something like BLM’s Transpose (your “alternate summon” button). Maybe call it Astral Shift and it will change to Umbral Shift when used, so you can switch again when the cooldown is over.

I think that would add a lot to the job without making the basic rotation too complicated for those who want a “fast & easy” caster, while still adding a higher level of mastery ceiling for those that want more complexity.

[Sylvain]

I do like a lot of this… while I’m of the opinion that instant or fast casts are still in fact casts, and don’t really see the need to burden us with longer cast times when we’re already “taxed” for our rez, I’d put up with just about anything to get my other 3 elemental summons!

At any rate, putting the summons on the gems made it easy from a UI perspective like you said. All that needs to be done is have them switch to the other set of gems when they’re ready to be used. I like the idea of switching between two “teams” that are more or less equivalent potency-wise, but that the main reason to choose one or the other at any given time would be the particular mechanics involved. You can do this to a minor extent now, by saving Ifrit to line up with a good time for your jump-in action, but giving us the other 3 summons with unique abilities could help it feel like you have more flexibility and variety to the rotation. One idea I’ve seen that I like is splitting the 6 summons into astral/umbral teams and having something like BLM’s Transpose (your “alternate summon” button). Maybe call it Astral Shift and it will change to Umbral Shift when used, so you can switch again when the cooldown is over.

I think that would add a lot to the job without making the basic rotation too complicated for those who want a “fast & easy” caster, while still adding a higher level of mastery ceiling for those that want more complexity.

I mean at the end of the day they're all still rather simple we only have 2 skills and they need to be used within a window of 10s so there's so much that can be done.
Following what I added.
Leviathan is just 4 times the same cast just slower, and slower, and slower. So nothing hard to understand.
Shiva I pictured a 4 action (2s recast) where you the second and fourth step are either rear/flank like the old dragoon claw and fang. The second action would be your "staff attack" which does extra damage for each positional well executed.
Ramuh would just be a quick game of pressing button A if you have 0 charges, button B if you have any. It's not complicated, it's just fast. (And the fast paced would be allowed BECAUSE you can't move while doing it. Like, you can't./shouldn't be doing any mechanic while under ramuh. i really feel taht would make some fun experience)

I don't believe those to be any harder to understand than most other abilities.
But that would definitely add a lot. (however if we ever get something else I fear it will just be glamour ^^')

[Lorika]

By adding Levi Shiva (We become icy white!) and Ramuh, we can have 6 clear level of mobility. 0 being "0 instant" and feeling the gap between all those.

Did you read your job quest and the lore of the job?
Because this imply you didn't.

The summoning process was created by Allagan, and everything you learn is based on it, and they mostly studied Bahamut.... At this point Ramuh and Shiva didn't exist.
But that aside :
- Shiva is impossible since it was created by ysaile and inhabited her soul. Shiva disapeared with her death
- Ramuh don't trust human, and he even consider them the reason of all the existing problem. When you beat it, it barelly acknowledge you and it's clear that at the first thing it consider mistake, it will take back the little trust it put in you.... And to begin with Ramuh is a protector, it protect the forest and it "childs", he doesn't care about going outside of it or anything else.

So no, bear with it : all you'll ever got are Bahamut, on which Allagan made experiment to create summoning magic before they empire collapse.

[Khryseis_Astra]

Did you read your job quest and the lore of the job?
Because this imply you didn't.

There’s been plenty of in-game lore bits that could be used to justify why we would be able to use Levi, Shiva and Ramuh now, when we couldn’t before.

Not to give spoilers for those who haven’t done them yet, but look a little more closely at the dialog and WoL “upgrades” in ShB MSQ, the Eden raids, and a more in-depth discussion in EW of how summoning relates to ancient creation magic.

All egis really are, are arcane constructs created using the lingering aetheric essence of a defeated primal. If we’ve defeated them, we’ve been exposed to that essence. There was also a reason why we weren’t “strong enough” to summon more egis, but again, with the events of ShB MSQ, that could easily be explained away.

[BabyYoda]

Adding more summons
By adding more summon, you can have a broader range of "static summons" and "free like the wind" summons. Assuming a "mobility level". 0 being "100% cast" and 5 being "100% instant", what we currently have is :
5: Titan
3~4 : Garuda
1~2 : Ifrit
0 : none

Good idea and I would suggest such a system could use MP instead of another gauge

[Lorika]

There’s been plenty of in-game lore bits that could be used to justify why we would be able to use Levi, Shiva and Ramuh now, when we couldn’t before.

Not to give spoilers for those who haven’t done them yet, but look a little more closely at the dialog and WoL “upgrades” in ShB MSQ, the Eden raids, and a more in-depth discussion in EW of how summoning relates to ancient creation magic.

All egis really are, are arcane constructs created using the lingering aetheric essence of a defeated primal. If we’ve defeated them, we’ve been exposed to that essence. There was also a reason why we weren’t “strong enough” to summon more egis, but again, with the events of ShB MSQ, that could easily be explained away.

Doesn't change things in fact.

Shiva still impossible because (i will say it again), this primal was created by Ysayle and was tied to her soul. Only her was able to summon it with enough Crystal. Shiva disapeared alongside Ysayle (herectics stated they were unable to summon Shiva after her death).
Meaning : you must summon Ysayle soul to have access to Shiva..... if SE ever allow Shiva to player, i unsub directly. Leave Ysayle alone! She doesn't deserve to be the slave of a summoner!

For the grumpy bilibili gramps. It's a protector, it only attack if his childs (Sylph) are in danger.
it doesn't trust human at all, and even consider them to be the source of all the problems. It barely aknowledge the WoL....
And even if you're able to summon it.... You will have an hovering stationary mini bearded gramps that will only throw lightning when you're attacked and the mob enter a certain radius... Sooo great!

As for Levi-chan.... It's just a dumb and agressive big fat eel that can only use it power in water.... very usefull indeed!

[Khryseis_Astra]

Shiva was not “created” by Ysayle. Shiva was an actual personage who was intimately involved with a certain dragon, who became an almost mythic figure. She could be summoned just as easily by anyone with the power to do so. (And she was! By someone else, just based on our memories of her!)

When we summon, we’re creating arcane constructs or thought-forms; we’re not summoning the actual person or deity the summons are based on. The “feelings” of the mythos they’re based on, if they can be said to have them, aren’t relevant. If so, you could make the same argument for the ones we already have. Would Ifrit “like” being summoned by a non-Amalj’aa? Our existing gem summons are tied to allied societies that we very fiercely fought against originally, and we got the power of those summons well before peace was made with their people.

By your reasoning, we should only be able to summon Phoenix, but only if we completed the Coils raids, and Bahamut, but only after completing all 7 EW Extremes.

The biggest reason given in-game for why we don’t have the other 3 primals was that we had supposedly reached our “aetheric limit” with the ones we already had. But we are stronger now (again, see ShB) and we got Solar with no explanation whatsoever, but it’s pretty obvious by the time you get it what it’s supposed to represent.