What to manage as a tank?

[Terhix]

I want choice, I want branching rotations, I want stances, I want choice that means that “press the highest DPS option” isn’t always the correct option

The problem with that is if doing tanking is a DPS loss, then players will find a way to still functionally tank without losing DPS. This isn't even a XIV thing, and a lot of it has to do with player expectations and experience. If the optimal way to play the game is for tanks to lose enmity generation or mitigation so that the encounter is finished 2% faster, than that's what's going to happen. This is why Blizzard removed penalty from Defensive Stance for prot warriors after re-introducing it in the big talent rework in Dragonflight, because prot warriors would actively tank in battle stance most of the time for dps, same thing that happened in this game couple expansions back. You can't just bring mechanics of old and expect them to work in modern context.

Invulns are another example of this. When I started playing the game there was still at least a pretense in the playerbase that you ought to save your invuln for emergencies, now invulns are just treated as a way to solve tank busters. Doing a tank swap, even a double swap, is not hard, but it is still much easier to have one player press a single button and ignore the mechanic completely. Invulns aren't new, tank busters haven't changed much, but player expectations and approach to mechanics have. Given the opportunity players will optimize fun out of the game, and that's not the players' fault. Whatever the intent of the designer was doesn't matter, all that matters is the emergent gameplay the design creates, and if that leads to degenerate gameplay - like it does with invulns now, or how it did with tank stances of old - then that is a fault in the design.

[Supersnow845]

The problem with that is if doing tanking is a DPS loss, then players will find a way to still functionally tank without losing DPS. This isn't even a XIV thing, and a lot of it has to do with player expectations and experience. If the optimal way to play the game is for tanks to lose mitigation so that the encounter is finished 2% faster, than that's what's going to happen. This is why Blizzard removed penalty from Defensive Stance for prot warriors after re-introducing it in the big talent rework in Dragonflight, because prot warriors would actively tank in battle stance most of the time for dps, same thing that happened in this game couple expansions back. You can't just bring mechanics of old and expect them to work in modern context.

Invulns are another example of this. When I started playing the game there was still at least a pretense in the playerbase that you ought to save your invuln for emergencies, now invulns are just treated as a way to solve tank busters. Doing a tank swap, even a double swap, is not hard, but it is still much easier to have one player press a single button and ignore the mechanic completely. Invulns aren't new, tank busters haven't changed much, but player expectations and approach to mechanics have. Given the opportunity players will optimize fun out of the game, and that's not the players' fault. Whatever the intent of the designer was doesn't matter, all that matters is the emergent gameplay the design creates, and if that leads to degenerate gameplay - like it does with invulns now, or how it did with tank stances of old - then that is a fault in the design.

Though that also doesnt account for the fact that you can account for this by design

Like using your invuln example, simply make certain TB’s pierce invulns. That would necessitate a change in how tanks interact with them, in effect the abyssos TB’s already did this in a way but snapshotting DOT damage is just horribly explained. That would also be how I would deal with changes to something like stances and agro. Sure you’ll attempt to minimise what isn’t max DPS but if it still ends up being 20-30% of your rotation by forced necessity then it’s still a massive improvement over what we have now because there will be a huge amount of optimisation around how low you can go and when you actually perform the lower DPS actions

[GoatOfWar]

Tanks have to manage their boredom meter.

[Terhix]

Though that also doesnt account for the fact that you can account for this by design

Like using your invuln example, simply make certain TB’s pierce invulns. That would necessitate a change in how tanks interact with them, in effect the abyssos TB’s already did this in a way but snapshotting DOT damage is just horribly explained.

You just end up creating more problems down the line, like how they stuck to LD causing the DRK to die for no other reason than the designers wanting it to be this way because it's a homage to Blood DK or something, and as a result you now need a Ph.D. to understand what that tooltip even means and people still complain about it. They should have just removed the dying part, effectively making LD a holmgang but with easier timing to warrant longer cooldown and call it a day.

If invulns are deteriorating the gameplay, and they are, and they aren't necessary for anything, which they aren't, just remove them from the game.

That would also be how I would deal with changes to something like stances and agro. Sure you’ll attempt to minimise what isn’t max DPS but if it still ends up being 20-30% of your rotation by forced necessity then it’s still a massive improvement over what we have now because there will be a huge amount of optimisation around how low you can go and when you actually perform the lower DPS actions

Massive improvement of what metric precisely? Player annoyance? Or fighting over who gets the OT spot? You can make tanking more involved without it costing tanks DPS, they already do less DPS than DPS jobs for the simple fact of being a tank.

[Supersnow845]

You just end up creating more problems down the line, like how they stuck to LD causing the DRK to die for no other reason than the designers wanting it to be this way because it's a homage to Blood DK or something, and as a result you now need a Ph.D. to understand what that tooltip even means and people still complain about it. They should have just removed the dying part, effectively making LD a holmgang but with easier timing to warrant longer cooldown and call it a day.

If invulns are deteriorating the gameplay, and they are, and they aren't necessary for anything, which they aren't, just remove them from the game.



Massive improvement of what metric precisely? Player annoyance? Or fighting over who gets the OT spot? You can make tanking more involved without it costing tanks DPS, they already do less DPS than DPS jobs for the simple fact of being a tank.

I mean I just used your example of invulns to prove a point, I would rather invulns don’t exist in the first place as they add nothing to the game but I was more pointing out that just because invulns trivialise the current design doesn’t mean that’s an innumerable fact, it just means the game design has to change

That’s the thing I want tank DPS to be taxed because I want the old tank design back where a tank that was played completely flawlessly on a dummy did DPS damage but it was taxed by nature of actually having tank responsibilities, not this current design where you barley have to try to hit the tank’s ceiling but the ceiling is artificially at 60% of a DPS damage. What’s the “fun” in maximising your DPS when your DPS is artificially capped anyway because they assume you’ll do something extremely close to max DPS anyway because there is no barriers to max DPS. You can see this in how small the tank IQR’s are, you aren’t being challenged to do DPS against your tanking, you are playing 2 seperate roles in one where your DPS is artificially capped. This kinda circles into my experience problem I originally stated with tanks and healers, what enjoyment comes out of maxxing DPS when nothing you do as a tank/healer interferes with your ability to do max DPS. The off tank problem again comes from trying to fit this design into modern 14 where the OT doesn’t have a responsibility, that’s not an unchangable fact, that’s square being lazy

I don’t necessarily want tank DPS to be nerfed, I just want to feel like I’m actually working between my damage and my responsibilities as a tank to achieve max DPS, not have my artificially capped DPS rotation sitting around like a baby toy to hide how shallow tanking actually is in this game never mind how shallow the OT’s job is


(Just as a side note I don’t have a problem with you picking holes in my thoughts, this isn’t a developed idea, I’m just trying to express it as best as I can)

[Terhix]

That’s the thing I want tank DPS to be taxed because I want the old tank design back where a tank that was played completely flawlessly on a dummy did DPS damage but it was taxed by nature of actually having tank responsibilities, not this current design where you barley have to try to hit the tank’s ceiling but the ceiling is artificially at 60% of a DPS damage.

That old design has changed because it failed, it produced degenerate gameplay. If a tank can deal same DPS as a melee DPS job, then it doesn't need extra enmity to hold agro, it just needs to turn on its stance for the beginning of the encounter to establish initial aggro and then can turn it off and never lose it, which is exactly what happened. The same reason why everyone and their dog put all their attribute points into Strength in ARR and HW back when you had a choice when leveling. We still have residue of that problem present in current design where all tanks meld crit/dhit and all tank BiS items have exactly 0 Tenacity on them, that's not tank players being a problem, that SE stubbornly refusing to make Tenacity worth it as a DPS stat.

What’s the “fun” in maximising your DPS when your DPS is artificially capped anyway because they assume you’ll do something extremely close to max DPS anyway because there is no barriers to max DPS.

Having naturally lower damage doesn't mean you don't have to maximize it nor that maximizing it isn't fun, there is no shortage of tanks for parse runs after all, nor that you don't have to optimize it if you want to kill the boss. If tanks did 5% DPS of a melee DPS then maybe it wouldn't matter, but at 60% that's still a lot of DPS in a party with 4 DPS jobs and 4 support jobs.

[Supersnow845]

That old design has changed because it failed, it produced degenerate gameplay. If a tank can deal same DPS as a melee DPS job, then it doesn't need extra enmity to hold agro, it just needs to turn on its stance for the beginning of the encounter to establish initial aggro and then can turn it off and never lose it, which is exactly what happened. The same reason why everyone and their dog put all their attribute points into Strength in ARR and HW back when you had a choice when leveling. We still have residue of that problem present in current design where all tanks meld crit/dhit and all tank BiS items have exactly 0 Tenacity on them, that's not tank players being a problem, that SE stubbornly refusing to make Tenacity worth it as a DPS stat.



Having naturally lower damage doesn't mean you don't have to maximize it nor that maximizing it isn't fun, there is no shortage of tanks for parse runs after all, nor that you don't have to optimize it if you want to kill the boss. If tanks did 5% DPS of a melee DPS then maybe it wouldn't matter, but at 60% that's still a lot of DPS in a party with 4 DPS jobs and 4 support jobs.

Yea the old design failed, specifically because you could simply avoid the problem, that’s what I want to change. Like I’m trying really hard here to explain that I don’t want exactly HW nor do I want exactly modern tanks but either I’m not explaining that well or you are taking my points way too literally. Imagine the old system but cut shirk, cut all agro management tools of the other classes and make tank DPS stance reduce agro generation by 30% then buff tank damage in a flawless dummy test to melee damage. Tanks then HAVE to use their agro tools as they simply cannot get around it. That doesn’t mean that their goal isn’t to max DPS but how they have forced interaction with their ability to maintain agro, this isn’t exactly what I want but a representation of it. FORCE me to interact with my ability to tank and control the encounter even if this interaction comes at the expense of my DPS

And yes that’s my entire point, why am I playing a TANK if the endgame of my optimisation is playing my entirely disconnected DPS rotation that does enforced lower damage because their is no restrictions on optimising it to perfection. This is ironically something healers get right as a support your first priority should be performing your support role and this should at points come at the cost of your ability to do DPS. Modern tanks meanwhile sequester the two halves and then make the tanking half way too easy so the long and short of your optimisation is optimising an overly simply melee DPS with no positionals or uptime concerns

[Terhix]

Yea the old design failed, specifically because you could simply avoid the problem, that’s what I want to change. Like I’m trying really hard here to explain that I don’t want exactly HW nor do I want exactly modern tanks but either I’m not explaining that well or you are taking my points way too literally. Imagine the old system but cut shirk, cut all agro management tools of the other classes and make tank DPS stance reduce agro generation by 30% then buff tank damage in a flawless dummy test to melee damage. Tanks then HAVE to use their agro tools as they simply cannot get around it. That doesn’t mean that their goal isn’t to max DPS but how they have forced interaction with their ability to maintain agro, this isn’t exactly what I want but a representation of it. FORCE me to interact with my ability to tank and control the encounter even if this interaction comes at the expense of my DPS

You will also need to remove Provoke from the game if you want it to work like that, and I'm not sure how you're going to do tank swaps without it and Shirk. I can respect that you have your own idiosyncratic vision for what you'd like the game to be like, but the point ultimately stands: if there is a problem with tanks not having enough to do, which I'm not 100% convinced there is (*), there are other solutions to that problem that don't involve "what if tanking but with DPS loss". Again, WoW doesn't seem to have this problem and it has largely the same principles for tanks, including passively doing less damage than a proper dps class.

And yes that’s my entire point, why am I playing a TANK if the endgame of my optimisation is playing my entirely disconnected DPS rotation that does enforced lower damage because their is no restrictions on optimising it to perfection. This is ironically something healers get right as a support your first priority should be performing your support role and this should at points come at the cost of your ability to do DPS. Modern tanks meanwhile sequester the two halves and then make the tanking half way too easy so the long and short of your optimisation is optimising an overly simply melee DPS with no positionals or uptime concerns

The main difference between healing and tanking is that healing is an active thing healers do, while tanking is an entirely passive act of being punched in the face.

*) OT doesn't have enough to do, but that's a content problem and to a lesser degree invuln problem, and making tanking itself more involved doesn't solve that.

[Supersnow845]

You will also need to remove Provoke from the game if you want it to work like that, and I'm not sure how you're going to do tank swaps without it and Shirk. I can respect that you have your own idiosyncratic vision for what you'd like the game to be like, but the point ultimately stands: if there is a problem with tanks not having enough to do, which I'm not 100% convinced there is (*), there are other solutions to that problem that don't involve "what if tanking but with DPS loss". Again, WoW doesn't seem to have this problem and it has largely the same principles for tanks, including passively doing less damage than a proper dps class.



The main difference between healing and tanking is that healing is an active thing healers do, while tanking is an entirely passive act of being punched in the face.

*) OT doesn't have enough to do, but that's a content problem and to a lesser degree invuln problem, and making tanking itself more involved doesn't solve that.

Provoke is fine, it just needs to be reverted to its SB form, provoke doesn’t need to put you on the top of the agro list AND generate a massive amount of extra agro, provoke was never a problem it was always shirk because shirk allowed you to generate the other tanks agro, provoke can’t generate any agro. I do believe that the current tanks don’t have enough to do, the MT barely does more than the OT and that’s the same even ignoring invulns, delete invulns and you just kitchen sink, swap other tank kitchen sinks swap back. You can call this a limit in encounter design but encounter design also has to play around the kits of the classes, tanks only have a small set of oGCD mitigations and nothing that is active or can be channeled, damage on the tank that’s not low sustained damage covered by the healer has to be artificially throttled because the tanks have so few options to actually tank. If you did a TB that needs at least a 30% + one other mitigation at absolute max you can do that 4 times a minute if you burn the invuln to cover 1. Tank design is artificially throttling content as much as content limits tank design. So if you bring in other solutions such as deflection, debuff control, interception all of them are built on the fact that the tank has enough defensives to absorb them…….which they don’t. About the only thing you can really bring back here is boss positioning or wildcharge mechanics which is functionally a disguised TB on the tank

As for difference in tanking and healing with one being active that’s kinda why I’m suggesting agro control, the boss shouldn’t just wail on you because you queued as the blue role, you should actually have to do something to maintain the bosses agro, that’s something that WOW (who you are right doesn’t penalise DPS to tank) still retains, you don’t just get to be the tank with 104960269206928510692@69* as much hate as everyone else because you queued as the blue role

[Terhix]

(...) that’s something that WOW (who you are right doesn’t penalise DPS to tank) still retains (...)

No it doesn't.