Do you think any DPS jobs are in a good spot right now?

[Aco505]

And the fact that melee are still so ridiculously far ahead is my point

If melee are struggling to keep uptime then your average poor uptime melee should be doing around the damage of a phys ranged or slightly less, not “the worst melee you know is doing about 3% more than a phys ranged and we only go up from there”

In Criterion the numbers were close for several melee and ranged jobs, so it's possible, but would you say that BLM or PCT should be doing p. range damage if they had to move too much? When was the last time a fight forced a caster to use Scathe or Enchanted Reprise for movement after optimizing resources and strats?

The thing is that the DPS difference is not necessarily due to uptime but because the devs refuse to balance MCH or the other "lower end" jobs. If a fight forced melees to use 20 ranged attacks, it would feel awful game play wise. Even when allocating resources to keep uptime, like RPR does by moving their strongest hit to get uptime in this tier, melees would just sit there firing weak ranged attacks, while casters have the option to keep their rotation easily by, at worst, losing some potential damage or resources within burst, just like RPR does with Perfectio.

I invite you to play a melee job and try to get full uptime in M2S or M4S. The Stage comboes, Beat 3 defamations, Alarm Pheromones 2, Witch Hunts or Electrope Edge 2 require precise timing to pull it off.

The gap between top and bottom should be lowered, I think we can all agree on that.

However, complaining now considering that melee have to work for their uptime makes no sense, as this was one of the biggest gripes of the player base in EW due to melee uptime being fully free. If the gap is still wide enough, then melee uptime is not the reason.

It makes even less sense when we realize that the jobs that will end up on top when there's melee downtime are BLM and PCT, those balanced within the "top group", not the rest of the ranged jobs. Precisely because casters can still continue their rotation unimpeded as long as they optimize their movement, slide casts or resources.

I think it's good that players can keep uptime by clever use of resources and skillful timing. Should there be more challenges to melee uptime in future content? Yes, but at the same time, not every job is equal. VPR has zero issues with it, and the jobs that struggle the most don't deal the highest damage even if they manage to get 100% uptime.

TL; DR. The gap should be at 5% at most. A difference of 10% or more between PCT and the bottom jobs is too much.

[Supersnow845]

TL; DR. The gap should be at 5% at most. A difference of 10% or more between PCT and the bottom jobs is too much.

I’m not comparing to PCT or the rezz casters because they explicitly are balanced differently due to the presence or absence of rezz. That’s a different discussion. Meanwhile physical ranged are explicitly taxed because they have 100% uptime by default whereas the melee theoretically have to work for their uptime. But currently the balance exists in a way that even when the melee are working for uptime they still out damage the phys ranged by a ridiculous degree. If you have poor uptime as a melee you should be doing less damage than a phys ranged because that’s the only difference between you

This is the problem I have, a lot of people seem to think the balance should be “bad uptime melee does 3% more damage than phys ranged, good uptime melee does 10-15% more” whereas I think that if you are bad melee you should do less than a physical ranged. Inherent higher damage minus average uptime concerns=physical ranged damage. If you are “working for your uptime” and still doing 10% more damage than the physical ranged and those that throw an enpi every time they are remotely challenged also still do more damage than the physical ranged then you aren’t actually being challenged on your uptime

The damage casters can just be bought down to that new equilibrium but the damage casters are a different story because they are fighting for a spot with classes that have rezz

[Aco505]

Snip

PCT and BLM are balanced within the melee group, not the other ranged. They occupy the caster slot (and ideally also flex slot) but they also have to work for their uptime. If a caster player is unable to keep uptime, then they should do less than p.range, following your logic. Yet you're only focusing on melee.

Put PCT and BLM down with the other ranged and players of those jobs would (rightly) complain that they don't do much more damage than the jobs with utility. The fact that they occupy the resurrection slot is not important for uptime purposes besides, of course, the fact that SE nerfs SMN and RDM damage based on it. Buff BLM to be more competitive with melee and two caster comps that spring up won't contain a RDM or SMN if damage is a concern.

The fact that casters have to cast doesn't mean they don't compare to melee or p.range. Both casters and melee have to work to keep uptime when conditions are against them, with p. range fully ignoring this problem regardless of circumstances (with some small exceptions being DNC not having range to hit the boss with a dance in specific encounters).

The problem is, again, bad balance, not that melee can finally work for their uptime again. The difference should just be 5% at most.

[Supersnow845]

PCT and BLM are balanced within the melee group, not the other ranged. They occupy the caster slot (and ideally also flex slot) but they also have to work for their uptime. If a caster player is unable to keep uptime, then they should do less than p.range, following your logic. Yet you're only focusing on melee.

Put PCT and BLM down with the other ranged and players of those jobs would (rightly) complain that they don't do much more damage than the jobs with utility. The fact that they occupy the resurrection slot is not important for uptime purposes besides, of course, the fact that SE nerfs SMN and RDM damage based on it. Buff BLM to be more competitive with melee and two caster comps that spring up won't contain a RDM or SMN if damage is a concern.

The fact that casters have to cast doesn't mean they don't compare to melee or p.range. Both casters and melee have to work to keep uptime when conditions are against them, with p. range fully ignoring this problem regardless of circumstances (with some small exceptions being DNC not having range to hit the boss with a dance in specific encounters).

The problem is, again, bad balance, not that melee can finally work for their uptime again. The difference should just be 5% at most.

Again my point doesn’t involve the Non rezz casters because their damage profile also includes considerations around rezz vs no rezz, whereas melee vs physical ranged is entirely based on maintenance of uptime. I for one think that rezz itself is overtaxed but that’s not really my point here, my point is that if you are going to differentiate the melee and the physical ranged who’s only axis of balancing is uptime then there has to be a decent inflection point where a melee does less damage than a physical ranged because of poor uptime but that just really doesn’t happen in the current design, the melees are just always better

If your concern on this is the fact that nerfing melee with higher uptime considerations would unequivocally put the damage casters on top that’s a fair point but again the casters are differentiated based on rezz and not so much utility. I’m not exactly against slightly nerfing the non rezz casters to fit this new paradigm but again that’s not really my point here, my point is that the melee are not taxed enough for their uptime concerns and only doing 3% more rather than 15% more with bad uptime is bad design because if you have bad uptime you should be doing less

[Aco505]

Snip

Your point has been thus: a bad melee should deal less damage than a good p. range.

Right now, a bad PCT will do more damage than a good p. range. This should be an issue to you regardless of role, but you left out PCT and BLM. These two should be taxed for their uptime, just like melee, following your words.

The fact that the caster role is a mess because there's two groups in it is a different question and it's been like this for some time now even before PCT existed.

The difference between melee and ranged is not 15% but closer to 10%. And in any case, the problem is one and the same: the gap is too wide.

[Supersnow845]

Your point has been thus: a bad melee should deal less damage than a good p. range.

Right now, a bad PCT will do more damage than a good p. range. This should be an issue to you regardless of role, but you left out PCT and BLM. These two should be taxed for their uptime, just like melee, following your words.

The fact that the caster role is a mess because there's two groups in it is a different question and it's been like this for some time now even before PCT existed.

The difference between melee and ranged is not 15% but closer to 10%. And in any case, the problem is one and the same: the gap is too wide.

Yes but I’ve already acknowledged and moved past that point because uptime isn’t the only axis of balance the casters exist on, you have to consider that’s not the only reason the damage casters do good damage, but like I said I have no problem with the damage casters being taxed more heavily