How many more times must our Living Dead get griefed?

[AnjouMaaka]

Okay productive conversation

Here's your productive convo:

You have to be absolutely insane to think dark knight is enjoyable in dungeons right now. That's a you problem. Either you are having your buddy who actually heals you no matter how you play the job always join you for dungeons, or you never pull wall to wall when you tank. If you don't pull wall to wall, you are griefing your dps. If you can't survive the wall to wall pull, either you are failing at mitigation, or your healer is failing at healing, with evidence suggesting it to be the latter on this. I do more than just this baby easy mode content where death should always be considered unacceptable because of how baby easy mode it is. Attacking my skill level shows how shallow you are as a person and how ignorant you are of the facts. That's not my responsibility. Square Enix is responsible for policing their game. They have failed at this job by continuing to allow healers to get away with this stuff for far too long. I shouldn't be forced to play warrior in order to satisfy this responsibility of Square Enix. They should address the problem across all tanks. Instead, dark knight has been in this state of allowing the healers a tank to grief in dungeons for 3 expansions. That's what we are trying to address here. The ideal fix is Raw Intuition becoming a tank role ability. If you don't agree with that, it's fine, disagree with it and move on. The goal is to get support for this. Where that support comes from is irrelevant. It's a legitimate suggestion and one that doesn't require developing a new skill for dark knight. I haven't seen you actually suggest anything as a counter suggestion. All I've seen is you trying to go out of your way to refute something you don't agree with because it offends you. Making it personal was your mistake, and makes everything you've said here complete gibberish because you've been unable to set aside your feelings in order to look at this objectively. At this point, I don't think anyone here is going to take you seriously because of how much you've pretty much gone out of your way to refute yourself. I don't need to refute you. I don't need to convince you either. There are plenty who have come here with far more intelligence on the subject matter than you have shown and actually made some of their own suggestions. I'm not here to convince anyone who enjoys the currently suffering design of dark knights in dungeons. I'm sorry, but always ending up in the grave during wall to wall pulls because of the healer is not fun, and should be addressed as a major problem with dark knight's design. I've already stated the damage rotation for the job is perfectly fine. The problem that exists as the core of the topic here is that dark knight has no self sustain. Failing to see that is a you problem.

[Supersnow845]

snip

Again you need to stop presenting your opinions as hard fact that square need to fix

“You have to be insane to think DRK is fun in dungeons”

THAT. IS. YOUR. OPINON. I don’t not agree with it, like I said I actually enjoy there being a semblance of danger in dungeons. You don’t have to agree with that but until you understand that your opinion on this subject isn’t just universal fact you are never going to get anywhere. Like I said in my opinion (read opinion) danger generated from interaction between the roles where no one role is totally self sufficient. Read again I DONT WANT TO BE SELF SUFFICIENT AS A TANK, please read that, and read that again, and read it a third time, that is not me being wrong that is an opinion that you disagree with that you need to acknowledge is just as valid of an opinion as your own. Healers being reduced to irrelevancy with raw intuition as you suggest because you don’t like the fact that you can be put in danger by a bad healer is YOUR OPINION and one I simply do not agree with

Your entire premise that I’m an idiot who is constantly refuting himself is entirely built on your belief that you are arguing from a position of pure fact and not your own opinion so I’m obviously an idiot for arguing against facts when in reality I simply do not agree with your opinion and I strongly disagree with your proposed solution as I do not and nor do others I have talked to have this universal problem where literally every healer you have ever gotten seems like they are out to get you

You need to acknowledge that “solutions” don’t always amount to “I agree with your point but Id change id slightly while achieving the same thing”, in an objective persons eyes my solution to nerf WAR/PLD/GNB is just as valid as your solution

I’m happy to argue with people but this absolute utter belief you are arguing for pure fact and everyone agrees with you isn’t going to get you anywhere as you should have noticed because I’m not remotely close to the only person who has argued with you on this point. I didn’t even come into this thread till like page 16, prior to that there is 160 posts from other people who mostly also have problems with the way you are attempting to phrase this

Finally I will apologise to you for attacking your skill and I’ll apologise to CKnovel for our mutual argument, it was petty of me and I should know better, I won’t attack anyone from here on out

[AnjouMaaka]

Finally I will apologise to you for attacking your skill and I’ll apologise to CKnovel for our mutual argument, it was petty of me and I should know better, I won’t attack anyone from here on out

Except, you haven't put forward any of your own solutions. You've only argued with most of the people who have posted here in the past 2-3 days, most of that being irrelevant. And if you'll look, every player whose had a problem with the way I'm phrasing the issue has their main class for their profile set to a healer job, meaning they are simply here because they've been called out on their malicious behavior and are only here to try and defend said behavior. How they conduct themselves online is not my problem. The proof is in the pudding. Coming here to deflect the blame and claim innocence is not going to help them look better and it's not going to make me look bad. All I did was call out their behavior for what it is as a major problem for the game and offer a solution. I'm sorry but for this to happen almost every Expert Roulette is quite absurd and it's a sign that either the healer is ignorant of what their job is capable of, or they are intentionally not healing enough. Either way, it's griefing. By level 100 you should know how to keep dark knights alive during a wall to wall pull. It's not hard. If I can do it on healer as someone who doesn't even main the healer role, everyone can.

I'm not arguing for what you think I'm arguing for. My primary goal here is to see dark knight finally get some self healing on a short cooldown. It's well obvious what the preference is, but it could be a 600p excog on a 30s cooldown and that would at least be satisfactory in terms of giving dark knight at least something to keep it from falling too far behind the other tanks on self sustain. Raw Intuition already exists in the game, and simply making it a tank role ability would be easy to do in terms of the coding required. There may need to be something done with it's animation not being tied to warrior specifically anymore but that would be far easier to do than creating an entirely new ability. That's why its the solution I'm putting forward.

[Carighan]

I'm not arguing for what you think I'm arguing for. My primary goal here is to see dark knight finally get some self healing on a short cooldown. It's well obvious what the preference is, but it could be a 600p excog on a 30s cooldown and that would at least be satisfactory in terms of giving dark knight at least something to keep it from falling too far behind the other tanks on self sustain.

*the monkey paw curls*

- TBN now causes 600 potency of self-DoT over its 7s duration that is not absorbed by its shield.
- Oblation includes a 600 potency excogitation like functionality.

[AnjouMaaka]

*the monkey paw curls*

- TBN now causes 600 potency of self-DoT over its 7s duration that is not absorbed by its shield.
- Oblation includes a 600 potency excogitation like functionality.

Making TBN damage you over time is terrible. Dark Knight already suffers enough from lack of heals. Proccing TBN is not that difficult. The problem is wall to wall pulls. TBN pops easily enough on those already.

Oblation is just Aurora if Aurora was slightly more useful. It's a weaker Reprisal because it only lasts for 10s and tying an excog to it doesn't really do enough because Oblation is on a 60s cooldown the moment you are out of charges. If we go the tie an excog to Oblation route, it would need to be at least 800p. I'd rather see them add a regen to Oblation in that regard and preferably higher potency than Aurora

[Carighan]

Making TBN damage you over time is terrible. Dark Knight already suffers enough from lack of heals. Proccing TBN is not that difficult. The problem is wall to wall pulls. TBN pops easily enough on those already.

/facepalm

I apologize. I expected too much.

[Supersnow845]

snip

I’m not offering an alternative solution on the front on DRK because I believe DRK is the one that doesn’t have to change, that’s why my solution to the imbalance of tank sustain is to nerf PLD and WAR not buff DRK. I don’t want more sustain on DRK and my “solution” reflects that. That is what you aren’t getting. To me there is nothing wrong with DRK (well besides its damage rotation but that’s exogenous to this discussion) the actual problem is WAR and PLD so my solutions to this imbalance are going to reflect that because I don’t have your problem with healers in my tank roulettes

But let’s do a bit of a thought experiment, let’s say that I actually did experience your problems with healers in my roulettes as often as you experience them, my solution to this problem is still not to buff DRK because widespread showings of the problems you have (which again I have not experienced) entirely stem from poor healer design and overpowered tank design that never challenges healers to learn and so leads to situations where they are overconfident and underprepared. But again remember that isn’t a problem with DRK that’s a problem with how overpowered WAR and PLD are and how badly healers are designed

So this circles back to the point that I don’t experience the absolute volume of garbage healers you claim to (and when I do get garbage healers I don’t struggle on DRK even in W2W) and even if I did experience this my solution to the problem still doesn’t include buffing the tanks into healer irrelevancy

Don’t get my wrong there do agree there is an imbalance here that negatively affects DRK but in my view that’s caused by the others being overpowered, not underpowered

Let’s do another thought experiment here. Let’s say that despite my misgivings around buffing DRK I agreed living dead needed to change. How would I personally “fix” living dead? My fix to living dead would likely centre around reversing living dead to make it the tanks fault for misusing it. How would I do this, well what I would do is have living dead act like hallowed ground, it would freeze your HP for 10 seconds. But if you didn’t take damage that would have dropped you to 0 HP then you fall into the old walking dead that requires the healer to heal you to full to cleanse it. So if you use it properly you get a super strong CD but misuse it and it falls to the healer to correct your mistakes

I can understand how jaded you are if you truly get the volume of healers that are that garbage but I just don’t see bad players as a reason to buff or nerf a job, that’s not caused by me being a healer main, that’s me always having the same opinion across any job that bad players don’t justify job changes, actual job flaws should justify that

[AnjouMaaka]

I’m not offering an alternative solution on the front on DRK because I believe DRK is the one that doesn’t have to change, that’s why my solution to the imbalance of tank sustain is to nerf PLD and WAR not buff DRK. I don’t want more sustain on DRK and my “solution” reflects that. That is what you aren’t getting. To me there is nothing wrong with DRK (well besides its damage rotation but that’s exogenous to this discussion) the actual problem is WAR and PLD so my solutions to this imbalance are going to reflect that because I don’t have your problem with healers in my tank roulettes

You're right, bad players are not reason to buff or nerf a job, but Dark Knight design has been in this boat where outside influences dictate survival for too long. Square Enix is not in the habit of nerfing jobs for the PvE side of the game. They have done so some for PvP, but they almost never nerf PvE actions. You picked the wrong game to be suggesting nerfs for. Instead, they would be more inclined to buff dark knight. Whether you like it or not, that's the only thing we can reasonably ask for from the devs. Raw Intuition might feel like overkill, but it's a far better solution than nerfing warrior. And anybody that wants paladin to be nerfed clearly doesn't play the job because that mess is not fun to play, so anyone playing it well enough to actually self sustain like a warrior is a true paladin main.

[Supersnow845]

You're right, bad players are not reason to buff or nerf a job, but Dark Knight design has been in this boat where outside influences dictate survival for too long. Square Enix is not in the habit of nerfing jobs for the PvE side of the game. They have done so some for PvP, but they almost never nerf PvE actions. You picked the wrong game to be suggesting nerfs for. Instead, they would be more inclined to buff dark knight. Whether you like it or not, that's the only thing we can reasonably ask for from the devs. Raw Intuition might feel like overkill, but it's a far better solution than nerfing warrior. And anybody that wants paladin to be nerfed clearly doesn't play the job because that mess is not fun to play, so anyone playing it well enough to actually self sustain like a warrior is a true paladin main.

I mean on this point I 100% agree with you you’ve spit straight facts here (well besides PLD being a mess, I just find it boring). The devs won’t nerf because the devs never nerf, does that make me an idiot for still asking for nerfs…….arguably yes, but honestly that still doesn’t change my view on the issue because I still believe my views are correct

Even if square came right out and said “we won’t nerf WAR either you buff DRK or you get nothing” I would still vote to not buff DRK because I simply enjoy its tanking more than WAR (specifically on the sustain front, I’d 100% support DRK damage buffs to compensate for its lower sustain but that’s a different argument

[AnjouMaaka]

I mean on this point I 100% agree with you you’ve spit straight facts here (well besides PLD being a mess, I just find it boring). The devs won’t nerf because the devs never nerf, does that make me an idiot for still asking for nerfs…….arguably yes, but honestly that still doesn’t change my view on the issue because I still believe my views are correct

Even if square came right out and said “we won’t nerf WAR either you buff DRK or you get nothing” I would still vote to not buff DRK because I simply enjoy its tanking more than WAR (specifically on the sustain front, I’d 100% support DRK damage buffs to compensate for its lower sustain but that’s a different argument

Dark knight already does a lot of damage for a tank, but it has been dethroned from its place as the top dps among tanks. That being the case, there's no longer a legitimate excuse to tax it on survivability in dungeons. There is literally nothing you can do to save it as a dark knight unless you are just that good at kiting mobs, but then you're not dpsing the mobs and only delaying the inevitable.