The death of savage raiding and SE's lack of action

[MisterNublet]

Have to assume, since they're likely not raiding with all the healers in all the statics out there, it's the cumulative experience with and impression gained thus far from the general community of healers that partake in raid via the Party Finder.

Except the statement is wrong.

PF Healers don't have issues with heal checks, they have issues with mitigation checks disguised as heal checks.

Harrowing Hell was foremost a mitigation check. The reason why Tank LB was used on HH was because trying to get both tanks and all four DPS to press their mitigation tools, and god forbid spread them out, between taking bites of their elmer's gluesticks was too much to ask of PF tanks and dps.

When the boss two-taps the tank and annihilates the party because three people were also standing in front of the tanks as well, it wasn't the mitigation-less tanks and dps who manned up to their mistakes... they blamed the healer for not having AoE Benediction on a 0 second GCD.

PF Healers quit because of trash players blaming them, or found a static to end their suffering.

No idea where the idea that PF Healers quit because of an increased DPS requirement. That was pulled right out of their rectum. It's quite the opposite, Healers are quitting because of a lack of interesting DPS rotation.

Edit:

Healers in PF dropped off dramatically in Asphodelos, and Anabaseios, two tiers that both encompassed alot more AoEs + DoTs and successive high damage mechanic overlap, both things the forums consistently asks for to incorporate more Healing opportunity or stress on the Healer role. Every tier that operates like this, more often has low clear rates or the overall perception of the raids is poor. Every single one since at least SHB. If the goal is to increase healer roles in PF, this is clearly not the direction to go.

AoEs + DoTs were mitigation checks, not heal checks. If a pf group (tanks and dps) treated those mechanics like a heal check (not using their mitigations) and had healers adjust, they were the biggest issue with PF.

Proper mitigation and those mechanics were a non-factor.

Lets stop spreading the idea that this game has heal checks when 99% of them are realistically mitigation checks first and foremost.

[Galvuu]

No we aren't there yet. Responsibilities for Healers have not changed.

The current situation of Healers in the current game design is as follows:

- The PF Healers already have shown with previous tiers they don't like more heal checks on the role or more DPS requirements on the role. Increasing either of these causes the Healer population to decrease more than usual.

(...)

1) Remove mitigation from Healers. If I had to choose between (Healing, DPS or Mitigation) with the games current design (an important point here) I would hands down choose mitigation. It makes the most sense. Why? Well with the game's current design, you have to wait for more healing to show up then not and in between that we have a 1-2 button DPS string. Not exactly great but at least we have that. There is no encounter they will or can design where if you remove those 2 DPS buttons we have (giving Healers all the Healing and MIT from everyone now) that will be a good fight. It would be a stress test bonanza that most PF Healers will falter on because such an encounter would have to include so much damage going out that warrants Healers owning all healing and all mitigation. Just take a second to imagine the Pandemonium fight but with more damage going out. Perhaps you are capable, bravo. Average PF Healer is definitely not.

Mitigation off the role is actually a newer concept too. In coil days and a bit in HW, Healers did not have as much mitigation tools as exist now. And surprise surprise what else existed then? DPS stance dancing for Healers. Now I won't argue we should return to stance dancing BUT we can have some sort of a rotation added to DPS. Again, only AFTER we remove responsibilities from the role first. Remove MIT beyond say that one shield (like succor,adlo) and then SLOWLY add back a DPS button or 2 and see how PF responds. Things like a healing/DPS rotation become possible at that point.

Is this some Abyssos revisionism? Are you working for SE, to take all the wrong lessons from this? What primarily happened in Abyssos is that a lot of the mitigation checks were not on the healers hands, especially in the early weeks. So if dumbass tanks/dps didn't mit the bleed or hard hitting raidwides and bleed tbs, they'd melt no matter what you pressed as a healer. I still remember week 1 Hephaistos and people not mitigating the stupid jumps on dog 1 with Feint+Rep+Addle and healers/casters would freaking explode and there was nothing I could do. I tried single targetting Adlo, but I just didn't have time. And ofc, then everyone dogpiles on the healer. Do you know how crap that feels? I press 1 very hard, then oops, my tanks and melee are asleep on the wheel, half the party dies, "can you heal?!?!" in chat and I leave and join another pf as BLM cause I'm not dealing with that garbage.

Your solution literally exacerbates this problem- as has been mentioned, healing in this game is 80% mits. Have you ever seen logs and compared the healing output of a shield healer VS a pure healer? Shield always has like 30/40% more healing done in competent parties because the log accounts for the mitigation as healing. If a raidwide hits for 120k with a 40k tick bleed, then no amount of healing is gonna save you. It makes perfect sense that the tools to deal with that should primarily be in the hands of the people who are playing a job that should counteract these heavy raidwide hits. Do you really wanna put part of that responsibility in the hands of the busiest role, dps? Dps tunnel vision exists for a reason, it's a more complicated role which is fighting its own minigame.

And your entire argument based on "the mythological being of incompetence, the pf healer" is just absurd, sorry. Should we bring back aggro dumps for the cases where, when a tank dies, the other forgets to provoke? Should we buff tank/healer dps in case the dps is incompetent and you consistently hit enrage? If a healer joins a pf party and sucks then you die, like you will if a tank faces a tb towards the party, or if the dps is very low. Why must we cater healer design to an hypothetical lowest common denominator?

[Havenchild]

Except the statement is wrong.

PF Healers don't have issues with heal checks, they have issues with mitigation checks disguised as heal checks.

This is largely gibberish as PF perceives any high hitting attack as a "heal check". This is why when the parties are faltering DESPITE any present mitigation, healers are blamed. We could define something more like doom mechanics as heal checks but again that's not only what PF perceives as healer responsibility.

Harrowing Hell was foremost a mitigation check. The reason why Tank LB was used on HH was because trying to get both tanks and all four DPS to press their mitigation tools, and god forbid spread them out, between taking bites of their elmer's gluesticks was too much to ask of PF tanks and dps.

In a normal PF party comp, you are not surviving Harrowing Hell or Cross Slash without healing. That's a hard fact. I'll disagree that tank LB is used for anything else besides the path of least resistance to clear. PF first and foremost, prioritizes clearability and odds to that in everything from LB usage to overall strategy handling mechs. Nothing else generally matters. Hell, I'd be surprised if PF Healers even expect mitigation from anyone on average for specific hits because if you are a PF healer then on average you know something is going to be missing / overlapped etc.

When the boss two-taps the tank and annihilates the party because three people were also standing in front of the tanks as well, it wasn't the mitigation-less tanks and dps who manned up to their mistakes... they blamed the healer for not having AoE Benediction on a 0 second GCD.

This is a real extreme example that rarely happens in PF. If it's obvious someone died to being in the wrong place, no one is sitting there blaming healers for their death on average.

PF Healers quit because of trash players blaming them, or found a static to end their suffering.

To your first point, this is why you need to shift responsibility AWAY from healer role. That's exactly my point so you change the perception of others. As for the second point, most players engage with PF for raiding so take of that what you will.

No idea where the idea that PF Healers quit because of an increased DPS requirement. That was pulled right out of their rectum. It's quite the opposite, Healers are quitting because of a lack of interesting DPS rotation.

I said Healers do not want more responsibility. If that comes in the form of more DPS with the current setup, MORE PF Healers will leave the role. This is proven in every single tier that adds even a modicum of challenge with current healers.

Healers already have the following and they have to play better than every other role when it comes to mechanics specifically as a healer death is far more compromising than DPS or Tank deaths.

-Mitigation
-Healing
-DPS
-Mechanics

With the current setup, if you force much more DPS buttons, you will create an issue where people eventually are like "hey I already have to do all of this and now I have to do a more complex DPS rotation as well?? Forget it, I'll just DPS or Tank." I imagine SE has data that showcased the exact thing occurring to when they reduced DPS kits from HW -> SB -> SHB. If the correlation of Healer having more DPS options on average also lead to more people playing Healer outright, I'd imagine Healers would look very different gameplay wise right now. I think SE reducing DPS buttons off the role is a proof of concept and testament to likely the feedback metrics they are seeing on their end. However, this is also because at current encounter and class design, Healer has to do all of the above.

AoEs + DoTs were mitigation checks, not heal checks. If a pf group (tanks and dps) treated those mechanics like a heal check (not using their mitigations) and had healers adjust, they were the biggest issue with PF.

Proper mitigation and those mechanics were a non-factor.

Lets stop spreading the idea that this game has heal checks when 99% of them are realistically mitigation checks first and foremost.

Actually, I'm not spreading around anything, just saying how PF see's these mechanics as healer responsibility.

Also I found this ironic, but Link
You don't even heal in PF raids. Not a single log in three expansions.

Well then, how do we reduce responsibility? Do we take away damage, therefore making it more tedious for solo and msq quests while making deep dungeons harder, if not impossible? Do we reduce the stress of mp, which they've done heavily since Shb? Do we reduce mitigations that the healers have and then just give everyone else a super mit that they need would need to press for harder hitting stuff?

Of these options, if we are considering all levels of gameplay (MSQ, Solo Quests, PF Savage, Hunts etc), then for us to maintain job identity, while also fixing perception of the role etc

I personally would say, with current design, remove mitigation responsibility from Healers, giving that to DPS and Tanks and reduce some of the healing potential on tank (but not all of it). It does not need to be "super mit". Content like Deep Dungeons are kinda removed from class balance. Case in point, people who do deep dungeons on generally ALL roles, tend to avoid fighting monsters anyway especially on higher floors if possible. Even then, you can design content around what's missing, ala Bozja.

For other things like solo duties, you can simply add a duty option for healing/ shielding as needed (if) it's even needed. Most MSQ scripted fights already incorporate some sort of healing (usually passive) so that all classes can do the content with just not getting hit with things you shouldn't.

Overall, what the game should be balanced around the most is PF Savage as that is the most engaging content in the game that actually utilizes all class tools, but especially Healer. It is where most of the Healers have complaints centered around, and also where Healer role showcases the most issues.

Is this some Abyssos revisionism? Are you working for SE, to take all the wrong lessons from this? What primarily happened in Abyssos is that a lot of the mitigation checks were not on the healers hands, especially in the early weeks. So if dumbass tanks/dps didn't mit the bleed or hard hitting raidwides and bleed tbs, they'd melt no matter what you pressed as a healer. I still remember week 1 Hephaistos and people not mitigating the stupid jumps on dog 1 with Feint+Rep+Addle and healers/casters would freaking explode and there was nothing I could do. I tried single targetting Adlo, but I just didn't have time. And ofc, then everyone dogpiles on the healer. Do you know how crap that feels? I press 1 very hard, then oops, my tanks and melee are asleep on the wheel, half the party dies, "can you heal?!?!" in chat and I leave and join another pf as BLM cause I'm not dealing with that garbage.

Skill issue from you probably. Usually can just do Critlospread and maybe a sacred soil and that was fine Week 1. For SGE, you have Panhaima, + party shield and Pnuema which is enough. Granted I also actually GCD heal as needed. 9/10 times I'd consider myself lucky to have even Reprisal.

Your solution literally exacerbates this problem- as has been mentioned, healing in this game is 80% mits. Have you ever seen logs and compared the healing output of a shield healer VS a pure healer? Shield always has like 30/40% more healing done in competent parties because the log accounts for the mitigation as healing. If a raidwide hits for 120k with a 40k tick bleed, then no amount of healing is gonna save you. It makes perfect sense that the tools to deal with that should primarily be in the hands of the people who are playing a job that should counteract these heavy raidwide hits. Do you really wanna put part of that responsibility in the hands of the busiest role, dps? Dps tunnel vision exists for a reason, it's a more complicated role which is fighting its own minigame.

I actually don't specifically disagree with your rational here just to be clear. It would make sense, in theory, for Healers to be where the central Heal and mitigation responsibility comes from. However for current, with heavy emphasis on the current, game encounter and overall job design, it doesn't work. Please elaborate on the encounter that would have to exist that warrants Healers to be the all healing / all mitigation beast you desire while also does not create a situation where LESS people show up to heal on PF.

..I'll wait, but it just doesn't exist. You would literally have to design a fight that has nonstop healer and mitigation checks and that is exactly the amount of stress people do not show up for on PF. We have literal examples of this already with EW raids. I'm not sure why anyone believes doing more of the same is the solution to the PF Healer shortage.

Why must we cater healer design to an hypothetical lowest common denominator?

If we are talking about the lowest common denominator, I would consider that Expert dungeons, and I am indeed not saying we should balance Healers around Expert dungeon difficulty.
I am however saying, we should balance around how the average pf healer in savage operates. We should balance all job balance (specifically party heal/mit utility) around this. Because it is a necessary focus to preserve the raiding community as a whole.

[Maltothoris]

Of these options, if we are considering all levels of gameplay (MSQ, Solo Quests, PF Savage, Hunts etc), then for us to maintain job identity, while also fixing perception of the role etc

I personally would say, with current design, remove mitigation responsibility from Healers, giving that to DPS and Tanks and reduce some of the healing potential on tank (but not all of it). It does not need to be "super mit". Content like Deep Dungeons are kinda removed from class balance. Case in point, people who do deep dungeons on generally ALL roles, tend to avoid fighting monsters anyway especially on higher floors if possible. Even then, you can design content around what's missing, ala Bozja.

For other things like solo duties, you can simply add a duty option for healing/ shielding as needed (if) it's even needed. Most MSQ scripted fights already incorporate some sort of healing (usually passive) so that all classes can do the content with just not getting hit with things you shouldn't.

Overall, what the game should be balanced around the most is PF Savage as that is the most engaging content in the game that actually utilizes all class tools, but especially Healer. It is where most of the Healers have complaints centered around, and also where Healer role showcases the most issues.

Well they have to be super mits because stuff in ultimates. Things like Ultimate End, Final Chourus. In particular, The three run dymanis in TOP for example hit for physical dps for 135k and casters for 125k. The other other way to is go back into that fights with your suggestion and change the damage values.


Edit: It's also why the best healing comp in top was sch/sge for how much mit they had.

[Aravell]

I personally would say, with current design, remove mitigation responsibility from Healers, giving that to DPS and Tanks and reduce some of the healing potential on tank (but not all of it).

So what if DPS and tanks don't want that responsibility either? Should it get removed from them too and the boss just automatically applies a 40% mitigation to your entire party before they do their raidwide?

Removing mitigation responsibility from healers is asinine because mitigation is the only reason for barrier healers to exist in the party, you might as well turn everyone into WHMs if you remove mitigation.

As someone who only exists in a party to keep everyone alive, it's pure stupidity to remove any agency to reduce damage taken from the healer role.

[Havenchild]

Well they have to be super mits because stuff in ultimates. Things like Ultimate End, Final Chourus. In particular, The three run dymanis in TOP for example hit for physical dps for 135k and casters for 125k. The other other way to is go back into that fights with your suggestion and change the damage values.

**I'm assuming you meant to fix your message to edit in that TOP line but it looks like I said that, which I didn't lol

They would have to be good enough to equate yeah, at least stacked altogether. I don't see the issue with giving DPS & Tanks stronger party MIT overall, or just having DPS specifically have a good personal MIT and Tanks having stronger party MIT. As for going back to older fights, beyond say DSR, they already don't go back to rebalance ultimates so all of these fights with time and buffs to the class potencies / mit options etc, will become lenient ala, UCOB / UWU / TEA. They can still do even 1 to 1 movement of those mitigations to the other roles and not have to change any numbers. I say this with the caveat that if you are going to make such a move, you should rein in the "healing" capability of different jobs.

So what if DPS and tanks don't want that responsibility either? Should it get removed from them too and the boss just automatically applies a 40% mitigation to your entire party before they do their raidwide?

Removing mitigation responsibility from healers is asinine because mitigation is the only reason for barrier healers to exist in the party, you might as well turn everyone into WHMs if you remove mitigation.

As someone who only exists in a party to keep everyone alive, it's pure stupidity to remove any agency to reduce damage taken from the healer role.

Actually assuming you read my comments, I clearly wrote in the presence of Shield healers, moving back to 1/2 shields like it was back in the day when the only thing scholar had was Adlo / Succor / Sacred Soil / *Fey if using Eos . We survived just FINE as shield healers when we only had, le gasp, 2 skills on average that actually reduced damage or shields damage.
Most people regard SB has a good time for Healer design right? Healers had WAY less mitigation, way less oGCD heals and way more DPS options. Surprise, surprise.

It's almost as if we have examples for all of this.

As for "what if DPS and tanks don't want that responsibility either", well they could always choose to play Healer then that doesn't HAVE that responsibility anymore. But realistically, it's something they already do with Addle / Feint / Samba / Any AoE Tank Mitigation etc.

[MisterNublet]

This is largely gibberish as PF perceives any high hitting attack as a "heal check". This is why when the parties are faltering DESPITE any present mitigation, healers are blamed. We could define something more like doom mechanics as heal checks but again that's not only what PF perceives as healer responsibility.

In a normal PF party comp, you are not surviving Harrowing Hell or Cross Slash without healing. That's a hard fact. I'll disagree that tank LB is used for anything else besides the path of least resistance to clear. PF first and foremost, prioritizes clearability and odds to that in everything from LB usage to overall strategy handling mechs. Nothing else generally matters. Hell, I'd be surprised if PF Healers even expect mitigation from anyone on average for specific hits because if you are a PF healer then on average you know something is going to be missing / overlapped etc.

Most people in PF don't even know their head from their rear, so I couldn't care less what PF perceives high hitting attacks as, they're still mitigation checks disguised as heal checks.

So you're agreeing with me that most PF players are glue eaters. Path of lease resistance was exactly why tank LB was used, because getting 4 rando dps and 2 tanks who have never had to press their mitigations before now having to use them in tandem was painful.

No one said you didn't need healing for Harrowing Hell, good lord, I'm saying you can treat Harrowing Hell like any other mechanic and heal through it with oGCDs like any other mechanic if players used their mitigations and cooldowns properly. Hardly a heal check if played correctly.

This is a real extreme example that rarely happens in PF. If it's obvious someone died to being in the wrong place, no one is sitting there blaming healers for their death on average.

The amount of crying about a "lack of healing" I saw from tanks getting 2 tapped by tank buster+dot tick due to under mitigating was too damn much, or dps not helping mitigate during p7s AoEs/Purgation and wondering why they died in half a second. That is wonderful if you've never had to experience that, but it happened.

To your first point, this is why you need to shift responsibility AWAY from healer role. That's exactly my point so you change the perception of others. As for the second point, most players engage with PF for raiding so take of that what you will.

Absolutely not. Healer role is already brain dead. It doesn't need LESS responsibility, it needs to take away the mitigations from dps roles.

I said Healers do not want more responsibility. If that comes in the form of more DPS with the current setup, MORE PF Healers will leave the role. This is proven in every single tier that adds even a modicum of challenge with current healers.

I quit the role due to a lack of responsibility and the trash dps gameplay of pressing 1 button for 80% of my GCDs. Healing was only passable the first few weeks while everyone raided blind, but reclears were mind numbingly boring. Healers need more responsibility to keep the game interesting, not less. So, no, you do not speak for me as a ex-healer.

Healers already have the following and they have to play better than every other role when it comes to mechanics specifically as a healer death is far more compromising than DPS or Tank deaths.

-Mitigation
-Healing
-DPS
-Mechanics

With the current setup, if you force much more DPS buttons, you will create an issue where people eventually are like "hey I already have to do all of this and now I have to do a more complex DPS rotation as well?? Forget it, I'll just DPS or Tank." I imagine SE has data that showcased the exact thing occurring to when they reduced DPS kits from HW -> SB -> SHB. If the correlation of Healer having more DPS options on average also lead to more people playing Healer outright, I'd imagine Healers would look very different gameplay wise right now. I think SE reducing DPS buttons off the role is a proof of concept and testament to likely the feedback metrics they are seeing on their end. However, this is also because at current encounter and class design, Healer has to do all of the above.

Imagine thinking adding a few more dps options for healer is going to melt players brains. This is why FFXIV combat is in such a garbage state.

Actually, I'm not spreading around anything, just saying how PF see's these mechanics as healer responsibility.

That's why people need to educate the masses when they incorrectly label mechanics.

Also I found this ironic, but Link
You don't even heal in PF raids.

Damn, if only this wasn't an alt character after having retired my healer main.

You're a special one.

You don't even heal in PF raids. Not a single log in three expansions.

Correction, not just special, you're a buffoon.

[Supersnow845]

**I'm assuming you meant to fix your message to edit in that TOP line but it looks like I said that, which I didn't lol

They would have to be good enough to equate yeah, at least stacked altogether. I don't see the issue with giving DPS & Tanks stronger party MIT overall, or just having DPS specifically have a good personal MIT and Tanks having stronger party MIT. As for going back to older fights, beyond say DSR, they already don't go back to rebalance ultimates so all of these fights with time and buffs to the class potencies / mit options etc, will become lenient ala, UCOB / UWU / TEA. They can still do even 1 to 1 movement of those mitigations to the other roles and not have to change any numbers.




Actually assuming you read my comments, I clearly wrote in the presence of Shield healers, moving back to 1/2 shields like it was back in the day when the only thing scholar had was Adlo / Succor / Sacred Soil / *Fey if using Eos . We survived just FINE as shield healers when we only had, le gasp, 2 skills on average that actually reduced damage or shields damage.
Most people regard SB has a good time for Healer design right? Healers had WAY less mitigation, way less oGCD heals and way more DPS options. Surprise, surprise.

It's almost as if we have examples for all of this.

As for "what if DPS and tanks don't want that responsibility either", well they could always choose to play Healer then that doesn't HAVE that responsibility anymore. But realistically, it's something they already do with Addle / Feint / Samba / Any AoE Tank Mitigation etc.

So now you are arguing the shield healer should have mitigation responsibility there should just be less mitigation overall across the entire party like in SB (which is what we have been arguing for the last 5 pages)

I thought your point was the healer should be irrelevant and have no responsibility

Do you HONESTLY think that shifting the entire paradigm of the trinity is easier and more worthwhile than just making healers good to play for healer mains

[Aravell]

Actually assuming you read my comments, I clearly wrote in the presence of Shield healers, moving back to 1/2 shields like it was back in the day when the only thing scholar had was Adlo / Succor / Sacred Soil / *Fey if using Eos . We survived just FINE as shield healers when we only had, le gasp, 2 skills on average that actually reduced damage or shields damage.
Most people regard SB has a good time for Healer design right? Healers had WAY less mitigation, way less oGCD heals and way more DPS options. Surprise, surprise.

Ok, if you want to play this way, then name me a single savage mechanic back in SB that hit as hard in as short a time as Harrowing Hell/Cross-Tail Switch, I'll wait.

The mitigation bloat is necessitated by damage bloat, if you want the mitigation to be completely cut down, you'd have to pivot the fight design. Unless you think bloating a melee DPS that already needs to double weave with more mitigation that they HAVE to press to survive is a good idea.

As for "what if DPS and tanks don't want that responsibility either", well they could always choose to play Healer then that doesn't HAVE that responsibility anymore. But realistically, it's something they already do with Addle / Feint / Samba / Any AoE Tank Mitigation etc.

So you're basically telling people to go play a role they don't like and spam 1 singular button for 90% of the fight because you think it's a good idea to foist extra responsibility that they're trying to avoid by playing a DPS role onto them for no reason other than you think it would help the healer population, ok.

[ZoranIsBored]

Ive been healing for a while now, and would like to say that Harrowing hell isnt really a heal check and more of a mit check. Most of the stuff in this game is just mit check. Even in ultimates, such as DSR and TOP.