Why Erenville succeeded as a character where others did not

[MrKusabi]

I find points in both Cleretic's and Lilimo's perspectives to right rather true. Erenville calls Cahciua his mentor even before DT and seems to hold her in at least some respect, but in DT mostly seems to regard her and her flighty-ness with quite a bit of disdain. As for Lilimo's comment on "abuse," I believe that was more because Cahciua does not show Erenville the slightest bit of respect. That sort of constant needling is indeed a form of emotional abuse, which Lilimo did a good contrast with Y'shtola and Matoya's relationship, where the needling is mutual and thus demonstrates a mutual respect. At the same time, Cleretic makes a good point about it being more a parent who never really got the time to be a parent unable to come to grips with the fact that her child isn't a child anymore, and their personalities being too different to really understand each other.

Getting back to the original post, I think Catwho makes a really good point about introducing new characters. Forcing them directly into the spotlight (Wuk Lamat) come across as hamfisted and doesn't give time for the fans to adjust and develop an affection towards the character. Estinien, for example, was arguably a major protagonist in HW, but he had been introduced in ARR during the Dragoon line and during HW, the spotlight swung around so he was never jammed in your face the entire time. Then he went off to do his own thing for a while, so he didn't overstay his welcome. Now, he's quite beloved by the fanbase. G'raha was basically forgotten after the ARR raid series till his return in ShB, and even when he did return, he was supporting you the whole time. Wuk Lamat wasn't an awful character, she was just jammed into the forefront almost immediately, and the spotlight was constantly on her, so people very quickly got sick of her. She felt like, as others have stated, a Mary Sue self-insert character after a very short time. She just...wasn't given the time to cook out of the spotlight that others were.

[SannaR]

Erenville is 25 according to the 3rd EE; so still a baby for a race that can live to 300. I wouldn't call his relationship with his mother abusive, but it is very complicated and I could see how some see it as toxic. Some feel that he is fine with his mother constantly using fussy little bun bun and calling him by his birth name and not trying to correct her or asking her to stop as him being fine with it. To me with how he reacts it reminds me of how I grew up. Even though my parents weren't of the Silent generation my extended family sort of held that whole mind set; the one of children should be seen not heard. That you can't stand up for yourself and if you do try to you get told not to sas your elders. While also being made to feel shame for even thinking of doing so.

They have a complex relationship as not only is Cahchiua his mother, but also his mentor. They hint that it might not be the best one when he comments on seeing her name on the epitaph. It also comes off as he is suspicious of his mother still being alive from the start. She tries to reassure him by saying her body is in a safe place but then that scene in Solution 9 happens and at least to me is when tries to find some release but to no avail. So it just builds up til that moment in Living Memory as he knows any other time isn't going to be productive. He also seems to know any real choice words he'd want to shout at her wouldn't be worth it. That again to me at least he's realized that he is in one of those situations where you're dealing with a terminally ill person on their deathbed. You know those kinds of situations where you go along with whatever morphine addled mind ideas come up with. As it's more important to send them off on a good note and a smile.

[MrKusabi]

I really wish we had gotten a chance to actually see their relationship for longer than we did, and in a less chaotic situation. It's a bit too hard to get a read on them, and I personally am rather sensitive to the concept of emotional abuse due to my own circumstances. Sadly we just didn't get much in the way of time to read either way. Somebody had a neat hypothetical about meeting Cahciua during the Shaaloani section, having time together, then her getting on the train, but...if wishes were horses, right?

[Cleretic]

Some feel that he is fine with his mother constantly using fussy little bun bun and calling him by his birth name and not trying to correct her or askingherto stop as him being fine with it.

Something that I've seen people raise is that this is actually pretty in-keeping with some hispanic cultures; you just have multiple names for multiple contexts, it doesn't mean any of them are wrong names, they're just for different groups and different places; I feel like the most common instance we might be aware of outside of those cultures is kids going by a different first name at school, maybe because their given name is difficult. So Elenesh'pya is his 'home name', and Erenville is maybe more of his 'work name', and that's fine.

I think a lot of people actually mentally defaulted to something more like a trans person's deadname (ironic, given how some parts of the fanbase seem to hate trans people, but that's not important right now and I like that the lore subforum is mostly free of that). I know I did at first, but mostly in the context of congratulating Gulool Ja Ja for having exactly the right response. The fact it never comes up at all between Erenville and Cahciua does sort of correct that assumption--no, my mother does not get a pass for using my deadname, so the fact Cahciua doesn't get blowback, that means it's not.

[MrKusabi]

Can't say I took it as a deadname, but he did keep trying to correct people before just giving up with his mother. I took it as more of he changed his name (presumably to better fit in in Sharlayan), he now prefers that name, and his mother refuses to respect that. There's no denying Cahciua cares for him (she does show that), she just doesn't respect him, which is probably why their relationship rubs me the wrong way (also the weird decision to have him have a completely different accent, but that's a separate gripe).

[Cleretic]

(also the weird decision to have him have a completely different accent, but that's a separate gripe).

I think the underlying reason actually stems from exactly what I said in the first reply, to bring things back to the topic: they weren't writing him for Dawntrail in Endwalker. They didn't write him or cast him knowing he'd be from Tural (in fact, a few of us noticed his Endwalker short story was edited after publishing to remove a mention of his name origin that doesn't line up with Dawntrail). And then naturally we get into a weird situation where the English localization specifically has been painted into a corner, because only English gave him a noticeably different accent.

I could come up with a fitting explanation for why he's got that, he was hiding where he was from when he was in Sharlayan so it makes total sense why he adopted a new accent. But I'm not gonna pretend they explained it.

[SannaR]

Something that I've seen people raise is that this is actually pretty in-keeping with some hispanic cultures; you just have multiple names for multiple contexts, it doesn't mean any of them are wrong names, they're just for different groups and different places; I feel like the most common instance we might be aware of outside of those cultures is kids going by a different first name at school, maybe because their given name is difficult. So Elenesh'pya is his 'home name', and Erenville is maybe more of his 'work name', and that's fine.

I think a lot of people actually mentally defaulted to something more like a trans person's deadname (ironic, given how some parts of the fanbase seem to hate trans people, but that's not important right now and I like that the lore subforum is mostly free of that). I know I did at first, but mostly in the context of congratulating Gulool Ja Ja for having exactly the right response. The fact it never comes up at all between Erenville and Cahciua does sort of correct that assumption--no, my mother does not get a pass for using my deadname, so the fact Cahciua doesn't get blowback, that means it's not.

I would agree with this if it wasn't for what MrKusabi says in their response. In that everyone either gets interrupted before his birth name is fully spoken or before they can even say it. To the point where Erenville states that he goes by said name now and the person goes about addressing him as Erenville. Even Iyaate ends up using Erenville at times. It's only his mother who refuses to call him that either from her being a mother who isn't fully able to come to terms with how her son has changed and that there is no more time to adjust to that information so she clings to the past.

[Catwho]

I would agree with this if it wasn't for what MrKusabi says in their response. In that everyone either gets interrupted before his birth name is fully spoken or before they can even say it. To the point where Erenville states that he goes by said name now and the person goes about addressing him as Erenville. Even Iyaate ends up using Erenville at times. It's only his mother who refuses to call him that either from her being a mother who isn't fully able to come to terms with how her son has changed and that there is no more time to adjust to that information so she clings to the past.

There's also the issue that this "mother" is not really a living being any more, just a memory, and may not even be capable of that level of adaptation. She never knew him as any other name. The memory might not be able to take in that new bit of info and process it.

[MrKusabi]

There's also the issue that this "mother" is not really a living being any more, just a memory, and may not even be capable of that level of adaptation. She never knew him as any other name. The memory might not be able to take in that new bit of info and process it.

I mean, if she couldn't process a name change she wouldn't have been able to process aiding a full-on rebel group. The Endless of Living Memory are shown to be able to form new memories as they do realize what state they're in. If she couldn't form new memories, she wouldn't remember who you were after conversations ended. She absolutely can form new memories based on new information, she just doesn't with Erenville's name choice. Slipping up is one thing, but she never even tried.

(Not trying to come across as hostile to the idea though. It just doesn't stand up to scrutiny based on other available data)

[Cleretic]

I mean, if she couldn't process a name change she wouldn't have been able to process aiding a full-on rebel group. The Endless of Living Memory are shown to be able to form new memories as they do realize what state they're in. If she couldn't form new memories, she wouldn't remember who you were after conversations ended. She absolutely can form new memories based on new information, she just doesn't with Erenville's name choice. Slipping up is one thing, but she never even tried.

(Not trying to come across as hostile to the idea though. It just doesn't stand up to scrutiny based on other available data)

Yeah, this notion that the Endless are somehow incomplete or lesser keeps coming up, but it just doesn't bear out in any context the game puts forward.

I suspect it's an element of justification; that if the Endless are somehow non-people, then it makes us having to shut down Living Memory more justifiable. And in this case, also essentially tries to excuse Cahciua of a perceived ill by saying that either she couldn't have done better, or wasn't actually in the discussion in the first place.