Why Erenville succeeded as a character where others did not

[LilimoLimomo]

Which is just insane to me. Did G'raha's speech in Endwalker just mean nothing? The Omicrons are just copies of a copy. An explicit illusion fabricated to hinder us based on a memory of a long-barren world. There was none of this apathy for their existence then.

My subjective interpretation was that G'raha's speech to the Omicron simulacra in Endwalker was a philosophical counterargument made with the literal intention of making the Omicron it was delivered to explode into a bird, thus unbarring the way for the rest of the group. It was a good and effective speech, but nothing about it suggested to me that G'raha thought he was making it to a living being that would benefit from this advice. On the contrary, he knew that if his speech hit the mark the Omicron he was speaking to would cease to be.

The game has repeatedly made its position on this sort of thing clear in the past: that people passing judgement on others and their lives for their own selfish benefit are the bad guys.

That's true, but who counts as "others"? Who counts as having "lives"? FF14 constantly dismisses some lives while championing others, constantly demonstrates how it believes that some lives are worth more than others.

In the MSQ, it's not uncommon for us to kill some animals. Sometimes we need them for a potion to save someone's life, sometimes for food, etc. It is unquestionable that these animals had lives, and yet we don't tend to see any conflict in ending them so that those we value more highly can live more comfortably. I remember that one of our interactions with the Chirwagur was interrupted when a large bird attacked them, and even though the Churwurgur were clearly preparing to attack us, Wuk Lamat defends the Chirwagur from the bird and fights it off. This was framed as a noble act. And yet...what about the bird? Was it defending its territory? Had the Chirwagur perhaps done something to warrant this treatment? The authors make it clear they're uninterested in the bird's side of the story, and we can only presume it's because despite being alive, the bird innately has less worth than the Chirwagur. We go on to kill that bird, the same as we have killed so many creatures whose natural habitats we have encroached upon.

To be clear, I'm not saying the authors are hypocrites; I'm saying that the authors clearly believe that different kinds of lives have different kinds of values. There's a difference between "being alive" and "being a person".

So, how do we determine what is alive, and what is a person? There is no objective answer; it will always be a judgment call based on incomplete information.

All of which is to say, the everyday subconscious act of categorizing what things deserve the labels of "alive" and/or "person" is itself a way that we pass judgment on others. To truly not judge other things, we would need to treat bacteria and plants and Tamagochis with the same personhood as humans.

As for what criteria we use to determine what goes in what category...that's a big enough topic for a separate and much larger post. But suffice to say, the judgment is always happening, and it's worth thinking about the fact that we do it and the way we do it.

EDIT: I wanted to make sure I unambiguously tied this back to the conversation. So in closing, we can't determine whether Omicrons or Endless or Chirwagur count as "others" without first running them through our personal criteria for "alive" and "personhood" and judging them based upon that. And depending on how they score, that's going to impact whether we see them as "others whose lives we shouldn't mess with for our own selfish benefit".

[Dikatis]

That's true, but who counts as "others"? Who counts as having "lives"? FF14 constantly dismisses some lives while championing others, constantly demonstrates how it believes that some lives are worth more than others.

I never got this impression. The game makes no bones about how you sometimes have to defend your ideals and the people you love with violence. We had to kill Nidhogg and Thordan in order to prevent them from perpetuating the Dragonsong War and end the status quo that will keep the battle raging forever. But it never calls anyone more inherently worthy of living than the other. That's our central beef with the Ascians, who believe that the World Unsundered is more "worthy" of existing than the inhabitants of the Source and reflections when they both have a right to live. But the problem was that our survival is dependent on the ancients having lived their lives to the end. And thus, while the ancients are no less worthy of living, we fight the Ascians to defend our right to live as the people existing in the present.

We don't know why the eagle attacked, but it certainly wasn't for "territorial" reasons given that the Chirwargur were at the foot of the mountain and the eagle's nest was miles above. I don't understand why you would condemn Wuk Lamat for backing up her ideal of mutual coexistence and peace by defending people who'd be out to kill her from a beast that attacked them without warning. The eagle aimed to kill so we responded in kind as self-defense. We did not "value" the eagle's life as being somehow "lesser" than the Chirwargur's. But we're not going to roll over and let the eagle kill us because we also have a right to live and it's in our rights to defend ourselves. So your example is faulty.

To be clear, I'm not saying the authors are hypocrites; I'm saying that the authors clearly believe that different kinds of lives have different kinds of values. There's a difference between "being alive" and "being a person".

But at no point do the Scions consider the Endless "not people". By all accounts, the heroes treat the Endless as they were when they were alive. But the Endless themselves acknowledged that they've lived and died already. A significant number of them also show doubts about the system perpetuating their existence, since their continued lives require others to die in order to sustain their physical forms. If the Scions considered the Endless "not people", then they wouldn't have been broken up about it, as we see with Erenville's and Krile's reactions, in which they offer to look for another way without shutting down the terminals but are gently pushed along by Robor, Alayla, and Cahciua.

Sphene's plan was the harvest all life on the Source for the sake of keeping the Endless running. There was no dissuading her from this path, particularly after she formatted herself to remove her conscience and doubts in order to stay the course. The Endless have a right to live, but so do we. Choosing to let the Endless live means sacrificing all life on the Source, since Sphene will stop at nothing to keep them alive. And so we invoke our right to self-defense by shutting down the terminals. It's a messy situation that could have potentially been cleaned up if Sphene hadn't pushed so hard and had been more amenable to reason. But we didn't have another option given the remoteness of Living Memory and the astronomical costs required to keep it running as well as the deadline imposed by Sphene. It was never about "others" and "not valuing their lives", but about whether the living should have to give up their futures for the sake of those who've already lived theirs.

Choosing to revive the dead at the expense of the living is an unconscionable act and stepping aside was never going to be an option.

Anyways, this has nothing to do with the topic of the thread, which is about the usage of characters within the story rather than the moral conundrum presented by the Endless.

[SannaR]

Erenville is 25 according to the 3rd EE; so still a baby for a race that can live to 300. I wouldn't call his relationship with his mother abusive, but it is very complicated and I could see how some see it as toxic. Some feel that he is fine with his mother constantly using fussy little bun bun and calling him by his birth name and not trying to correct her or asking her to stop as him being fine with it. To me with how he reacts it reminds me of how I grew up. Even though my parents weren't of the Silent generation my extended family sort of held that whole mind set; the one of children should be seen not heard. That you can't stand up for yourself and if you do try to you get told not to sas your elders. While also being made to feel shame for even thinking of doing so.

They have a complex relationship as not only is Cahchiua his mother, but also his mentor. They hint that it might not be the best one when he comments on seeing her name on the epitaph. It also comes off as he is suspicious of his mother still being alive from the start. She tries to reassure him by saying her body is in a safe place but then that scene in Solution 9 happens and at least to me is when tries to find some release but to no avail. So it just builds up til that moment in Living Memory as he knows any other time isn't going to be productive. He also seems to know any real choice words he'd want to shout at her wouldn't be worth it. That again to me at least he's realized that he is in one of those situations where you're dealing with a terminally ill person on their deathbed. You know those kinds of situations where you go along with whatever morphine addled mind ideas come up with. As it's more important to send them off on a good note and a smile.

[MrKusabi]

I really wish we had gotten a chance to actually see their relationship for longer than we did, and in a less chaotic situation. It's a bit too hard to get a read on them, and I personally am rather sensitive to the concept of emotional abuse due to my own circumstances. Sadly we just didn't get much in the way of time to read either way. Somebody had a neat hypothetical about meeting Cahciua during the Shaaloani section, having time together, then her getting on the train, but...if wishes were horses, right?

[Cleretic]

Some feel that he is fine with his mother constantly using fussy little bun bun and calling him by his birth name and not trying to correct her or askingherto stop as him being fine with it.

Something that I've seen people raise is that this is actually pretty in-keeping with some hispanic cultures; you just have multiple names for multiple contexts, it doesn't mean any of them are wrong names, they're just for different groups and different places; I feel like the most common instance we might be aware of outside of those cultures is kids going by a different first name at school, maybe because their given name is difficult. So Elenesh'pya is his 'home name', and Erenville is maybe more of his 'work name', and that's fine.

I think a lot of people actually mentally defaulted to something more like a trans person's deadname (ironic, given how some parts of the fanbase seem to hate trans people, but that's not important right now and I like that the lore subforum is mostly free of that). I know I did at first, but mostly in the context of congratulating Gulool Ja Ja for having exactly the right response. The fact it never comes up at all between Erenville and Cahciua does sort of correct that assumption--no, my mother does not get a pass for using my deadname, so the fact Cahciua doesn't get blowback, that means it's not.

[MrKusabi]

Can't say I took it as a deadname, but he did keep trying to correct people before just giving up with his mother. I took it as more of he changed his name (presumably to better fit in in Sharlayan), he now prefers that name, and his mother refuses to respect that. There's no denying Cahciua cares for him (she does show that), she just doesn't respect him, which is probably why their relationship rubs me the wrong way (also the weird decision to have him have a completely different accent, but that's a separate gripe).

[SannaR]

Something that I've seen people raise is that this is actually pretty in-keeping with some hispanic cultures; you just have multiple names for multiple contexts, it doesn't mean any of them are wrong names, they're just for different groups and different places; I feel like the most common instance we might be aware of outside of those cultures is kids going by a different first name at school, maybe because their given name is difficult. So Elenesh'pya is his 'home name', and Erenville is maybe more of his 'work name', and that's fine.

I think a lot of people actually mentally defaulted to something more like a trans person's deadname (ironic, given how some parts of the fanbase seem to hate trans people, but that's not important right now and I like that the lore subforum is mostly free of that). I know I did at first, but mostly in the context of congratulating Gulool Ja Ja for having exactly the right response. The fact it never comes up at all between Erenville and Cahciua does sort of correct that assumption--no, my mother does not get a pass for using my deadname, so the fact Cahciua doesn't get blowback, that means it's not.

I would agree with this if it wasn't for what MrKusabi says in their response. In that everyone either gets interrupted before his birth name is fully spoken or before they can even say it. To the point where Erenville states that he goes by said name now and the person goes about addressing him as Erenville. Even Iyaate ends up using Erenville at times. It's only his mother who refuses to call him that either from her being a mother who isn't fully able to come to terms with how her son has changed and that there is no more time to adjust to that information so she clings to the past.

[Catwho]

I would agree with this if it wasn't for what MrKusabi says in their response. In that everyone either gets interrupted before his birth name is fully spoken or before they can even say it. To the point where Erenville states that he goes by said name now and the person goes about addressing him as Erenville. Even Iyaate ends up using Erenville at times. It's only his mother who refuses to call him that either from her being a mother who isn't fully able to come to terms with how her son has changed and that there is no more time to adjust to that information so she clings to the past.

There's also the issue that this "mother" is not really a living being any more, just a memory, and may not even be capable of that level of adaptation. She never knew him as any other name. The memory might not be able to take in that new bit of info and process it.

[MrKusabi]

There's also the issue that this "mother" is not really a living being any more, just a memory, and may not even be capable of that level of adaptation. She never knew him as any other name. The memory might not be able to take in that new bit of info and process it.

I mean, if she couldn't process a name change she wouldn't have been able to process aiding a full-on rebel group. The Endless of Living Memory are shown to be able to form new memories as they do realize what state they're in. If she couldn't form new memories, she wouldn't remember who you were after conversations ended. She absolutely can form new memories based on new information, she just doesn't with Erenville's name choice. Slipping up is one thing, but she never even tried.

(Not trying to come across as hostile to the idea though. It just doesn't stand up to scrutiny based on other available data)

[Cleretic]

(also the weird decision to have him have a completely different accent, but that's a separate gripe).

I think the underlying reason actually stems from exactly what I said in the first reply, to bring things back to the topic: they weren't writing him for Dawntrail in Endwalker. They didn't write him or cast him knowing he'd be from Tural (in fact, a few of us noticed his Endwalker short story was edited after publishing to remove a mention of his name origin that doesn't line up with Dawntrail). And then naturally we get into a weird situation where the English localization specifically has been painted into a corner, because only English gave him a noticeably different accent.

I could come up with a fitting explanation for why he's got that, he was hiding where he was from when he was in Sharlayan so it makes total sense why he adopted a new accent. But I'm not gonna pretend they explained it.