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  1. #21
    Player
    Fiosha_Maureiba's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ul'dah -> Gridania
    Posts
    2,044
    Character
    Fiofel Zalalafell
    World
    Balmung
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 1
    Coming from a theorycraft sort of realm here.

    I think as a Pugilist who cross classes for enmity generation abilities, as to what Kiote has suggested, doing a one-on-one tank.

    If you equip the Monk job on top of Pugilist, you lock out most of your cross class abilities and are left with Lancer and Archer. So I think you'll lock out most of your enmity generation moves, save for Taunt.

    Many folks will probably look more toward the speed run and ease of performance aspect of things. So until demonstrated with video on the content they care about, may not be deemed as a viable option from most players you'll come across.
    (1)

  2. #22
    Player Vackashken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,165
    Character
    Vackashken Zuth
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by SafeOnBlock View Post

    As far as Vackashken what have you been playing longer than me? How would you even derive a time line of what you are even referring to?
    Do you not remember your own post? Here, I'll remind you.

    Quote Originally Posted by SafeOnBlock View Post
    Its sad to me that people are so closed minded and quick to dismiss options like that. I come from the competitive fighting game community and after 10+ years of Marvel vs Capcom and 20 years of Street Fighter II people still find out new technology.
    I have been playing Street Fighter series since 1988 all the way to Tekken vs SF. Thus, why I said I have been playing longer then you. Not that any of this is relevant in the least.

    Quote Originally Posted by SafeOnBlock View Post
    I think that when you focus on the back attacks you must understand that I went and looked at the abilities of the pugilist and found they had a taunt, self heal, defensive stance, evasion boosts, and stunning attacks. That is what is being considered as a tank.
    No, its taunt isn't used for tanking purposes. PGL/MNKs taunt has a short effect time. When you taunt you will supersede the hate list. Meaning you will have top hate no matter what. This effect however is temporary and is meant only to be used to have a chance and active your evasion attack. Again - the effect is temporary. Having a self heal that has such a huge timer on it in comparison to the poor HP and armor choices doesn't make a tank.

    I could go on but I can't be bothered to. I have been playing pug since beta. Once upon a time it was a good tank. In fact I loved tanking on it and did so on every mob in the game to Batraal. Then they started to tweak the class and it became clear, much to my dislike, that they were pulling it away from being able to tank. Each time the class has been tweaked they have moved it father and father away from any real way to tank truly effectively.
    (1)

  3. #23
    Player
    Estellios's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    4,250
    Character
    Yoso Carrasco
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 77
    I think that when you focus on the back attacks you must understand that I went and looked at the abilities of the pugilist and found they had a taunt, self heal, defensive stance, evasion boosts, and stunning attacks. That is what is being considered as a tank.
    They may look like tank abilities on paper but in practice against major bosses, they aren't really suitable due to various caveats like Recast times, practicality, and general effectiveness. For example, as was already stated, Taunt gives you minimal hate so once the effect wears off it returns to normal and an enemy will return to whoever it was attacking.

    The self preservation moves, against high tier enemies, are more to take some heat off of you and save the healers MP since PGL/MNK has the shortest attack range and will be getting hit by a lot of AOE that doesn't have a significant windup time. Stuns are also useful no matter if you are tanking or not. For Fists of Earth, the defense boost won't help you on high level enemies and those abilities are mostly used to either bypass defenses and/or hit an enemy's weakness.

    There is capacity to tank, like I said, but it's mostly for XP/Spiritbond or otherwise "around your level" enemies, because thats when your evasion is significant and you can spam Haymaker to keep an enemy on lockdown and Fists of Earth's defense boosts will make a difference. It should be telling that in order for you to be sufficient at tanking you have to draw a lot of abilities from several other classes that are actually tanks, whereas those classes can generally tank without needing out-of-class stuff.
    (1)

  4. #24
    Player
    SafeOnBlock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    76
    Character
    Chief Nanaki
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 50
    @ Vack lol you seem to be an elitist so let me educate you about me a bit. I didnt in my post give you any sense of time line of how long I have been playing games or fighting games. I simply used MVC as an example. I have played fighting games since Street Fighter II hit arcades. If you wanna get all high and mighty I have been gaming since atari, I owned a turbo graphics 16 and probably have played games you have never heard of. So I suggest not making an ars of yourself.

    On top of that I think you are missing the point. Taunt can be used for what you said. But it can also be used as a emergency tool if you loose hate. Think outside the box dude and just because you played a class since beta doesn't mean you are either amazing or bad at playing it. Time is relevant in what you do with it and if you gave up on tanking with pug then how can you say its not viable now? Have you tested it? Have you put time into it? I think I understand the difference in thought here.

    I come from a scene that you spend countless hours in the lab (training) testing out option selects, different situations, meaty attacks, learning matchups against 35+ characters. I feel that this experience just makes me a different type of thinker. I am not saying yall dont have a reason to believe or think the way you do. I cant sit and say that you are 100% right or wrong without proof.
    (0)
    "Lets Fight Like Gentlemen!." Dudley SFIII

  5. #25
    Player
    SafeOnBlock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    76
    Character
    Chief Nanaki
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 50
    I suppose it is just that the general thoughts are split with the favor in that it cannot tank. Which is fine. I dont know how many of you have actually tried it or tested out different builds and strats so I cant really say much else about it. Again there was only one person that had proof he sat down and figured out a build and has consistently played pugilist as a tank.

    I guess I will have to do the same and as I said earlier I think that it should be an option even against bosses and SE should look into either buffing certain abilities or slightly changing them for the sack of just having another tank so that FFXiV doesnt suffer from the Holy trinity syndrom every other MMORPG suffers from.
    (0)
    "Lets Fight Like Gentlemen!." Dudley SFIII

  6. #26
    Player
    Almalexia's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    856
    Character
    Almalexia Indoril
    World
    Hyperion
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 70
    Quote Originally Posted by SafeOnBlock View Post
    I think that when you focus on the back attacks you must understand that I went and looked at the abilities of the pugilist and found they had a taunt, self heal, defensive stance, evasion boosts, and stunning attacks. That is what is being considered as a tank.
    You are over-estimating these abilities for tanking.

    The benefit of Taunt is not enmity generation, but overriding the hate list to put you (temporarily) at the top. This is most useful for saving someone's butt while a cure is cast or forcing mob attention on you to trigger Haymaker.

    The "defensive stance" grants less DEF than a pair of pants and has more utility exploiting enemy weaknesses than keeping you safe; in terms of enmity generation, it's more sensible to use the element to which your target is vulnerable.

    The "evasion boost" (singular) is a one-shot, 60-second recast ability. It's a single FFXI Blink shadow--not a guaranteed Utsusemi shadow. This has more tactical use in triggering Haymaker, replenishing MP and/or dodging imminent AoE.

    MNK has three "stunning attacks." The first only has a chance to stun when the target has no hate on you, the second only works on evasion and the third only works from behind. In terms of tanking, the only practical ability is the second--the first only works at the start and the third creates an unnecessary risk on certain targets.

    Quote Originally Posted by SafeOnBlock View Post
    The damage output is not a factor unless you loose hate but as stated above damage isnt necessary when tanking when you have other tools to raise hate
    Damage output is a factor. This is why MRD is so good at tanking. Did you think it was all Antagonize, Provoke and Flash?
    (2)

  7. #27
    Player Vackashken's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    1,165
    Character
    Vackashken Zuth
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 50
    Quote Originally Posted by SafeOnBlock View Post
    @ Vack lol you seem to be an elitist
    Nope. Not at all. People who are elitist with videogames are laughable.

    Quote Originally Posted by SafeOnBlock View Post
    so let me educate you about me a bit. I didnt in my post give you any sense of time line of how long I have been playing games or fighting games. I simply used MVC as an example. I have played fighting games since Street Fighter II hit arcades. If you wanna get all high and mighty I have been gaming since atari, I owned a turbo graphics 16 and probably have played games you have never heard of. So I suggest not making an ars of yourself.
    I don't care what you have been playing. I was simply saying I have been playing fighting games longer then you and I don't consider it a reservoir of knowledge to pull on. In particular in a MMO. It's ridiculous to even bring it up in the first place. I guess you missed that.

    Quote Originally Posted by SafeOnBlock View Post
    On top of that I think you are missing the point. Taunt can be used for what you said. But it can also be used as a emergency tool if you loose hate. Think outside the box dude and just because you played a class since beta doesn't mean you are either amazing or bad at playing it. Time is relevant in what you do with it and if you gave up on tanking with pug then how can you say its not viable now? Have you tested it? Have you put time into it? I think I understand the difference in thought here.
    Time is the most relevant aspect to this discussion. Not your baseless theoretics. I have played the class since day one - well before people realized (back then) it was the fastest class to get xp on when xp was based on how many hits landed. I have tanked through all its changes and "tested" its viability until the latest patch. They have been pulling it away from its tanking roots for months now.

    I have the experience. I do not say this in a chest thumping way but simply as a fact. Do you?

    Test away if you like. I flat out hope you prove me wrong because I miss tanking on it. However the evidence from how its taunt works now, to the fact you have to move around to different sides to active combos (something you're not going to do tanking), to its pitiful HP pool and lack of multiple hate mitigation skills, etc proves my point.

    Again though. If you find a niche shout it loud and clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by SafeOnBlock View Post
    I come from a scene that you spend countless hours in the lab (training) testing out option selects, different situations, meaty attacks, learning matchups against 35+ characters. I feel that this experience just makes me a different type of thinker. I am not saying yall dont have a reason to believe or think the way you do. I cant sit and say that you are 100% right or wrong without proof.
    And again. So do I come from a similar "scene". And again it borderlines meaningless in this game. This isn't Street Fighter.
    (3)

  8. #28
    Player
    SafeOnBlock's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Limsa Lominsa
    Posts
    76
    Character
    Chief Nanaki
    World
    Lamia
    Main Class
    Gladiator Lv 50
    This is way off topic but i still dont understand how you can derive that you have been playing fighting games longer then me? I never stated when I even started playing fighting games. Assuming you started with Street Fighter which is the first fighting game outside of the original street fighter I which I highly doubt because the game was horrible then we most likely started at the same time. Street Fighter II wasnt even released till 1991 which tells me you dont know what you are talking about. So again you are just trying to prove what? As far as you are concerned if you arent going to majors, on stream, or throw tournaments you dont matter anyway.
    (0)
    "Lets Fight Like Gentlemen!." Dudley SFIII

  9. #29
    Player
    Meleena's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    Lominsa
    Posts
    671
    Character
    Meleena Steelheart
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 74
    Stop mentioning fighting games that are irrelevant to the subject and start talking about Monk tanking.
    Thinking out of the box isn't only a fighting game technique (not technology) it's in the mentality of a person.
    (4)

  10. #30
    Player
    silverdragontyr's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    174
    Character
    Erdra Tyr
    World
    Brynhildr
    Main Class
    Pugilist Lv 90
    Mnk will never be able to, or be ideal for tanking. Yeah maybe they can take a couple of hits, but they will never hold hate when they can't BS Howling Fist. Pgl tank may be fun to screw around with on Ifrit or beastmen strongholds, but on *anything* else they will die or not hold hate well enough. Moogle the tank needs to not only take king but Mrd and sometimes more moogles. Chimera hits like a truck on Mrd and Pld, and some of the aoe's that are hard to avoid do more then half a Pgl max HP. Miser with the bad breath and no defense Pgl is a sitting duck. And Garuda? Haha try if you want, but I would never let a Pgl tank it.
    (1)

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