Can Pugilists/Monks Tank

[SafeOnBlock]

Stop mentioning fighting games that are irrelevant to the subject and start talking about Monk tanking.
Thinking out of the box isn't only a fighting game technique (not technology) it's in the mentality of a person.

I used an analogy that was taken out of context and in the most logical sense was used as a red herring to take away from my argument. Plus it was a good example and it was used right if the community understood what I was saying. I agree critical thinking and out of box thinking is a mentality but its also okay to use analogies to help portray an idea or technique. Maybe it wasnt a strong analogy based on the demographic in the thread and I apologize for that but im not gunna lie the dude pissed me off when he spouted off nonesense.

Back on subject. I said before I havnt play tested anything and was just curious about opinions. I got a lot of them and I do appreciate all of them. I got good ideas and what not from a lot of your input and if for some reason I find a group of people that are willing to help me experiment I will post my findings.

[Arcturus]

This topic is amusing. Kiote's presentation, while it has it's merits, isn't nearly as unbiased and comprehensive as you make it out to be. And the fact that you imply everyone else is closed-minded even as you refuse the tons of evidence they present against PGL-tanking is verging on ironic.

Are you here to discuss the viability of PGL-tanking or do you only want to hear what you want to?

I also have been playing PGL since beta, with a penchant for tanking, and have experienced the changes the class has gone through. Sure, if you build it the right way now, especially with materia, off-tanking and fighting even-matched enemies is definitely possible. But to believe that PGL can be on par with GLA/PLD and MRD/WAR as a main-tank is just foolish.

As has been stated, pugilists currently:

• lack defensive armor
• lack defense
• uses evasion as an offensive tactic
• lack HP
• possess extremely basic enmity generation
• possess defensive abilities that have critical drawbacks

Here's the other side you claimed to have been presented.

MRD: can use second wind, featherfoot, decoy, frontal attacks, high parry rate, defense doesn't rely on having FoE
GLA: can use second wind, featherfoot, foresightlol, decoy, shield, shield abilities,
WAR: collusion, vengeance, antagonize, unmatched HP, high AoE DPS
PAL: divine veil, cover, more effective self-healing, increased defense, block and block rate, AoE Flash, AoE Rampart

Against the tanking standards that have been set, you're really looking at a liability there when you have a "tank" build PGL. Someone who won't be able to tank as effectively as they wish, and won't put out as much damage as they could.

[Kiote]

• lack defensive armor
• lack defense
• uses evasion as an offensive tactic
• lack HP
• possess extremely basic enmity generation
• possess defensive abilities that have critical drawbacks

• lack defensive armor - Only Half True, Leather Armour Provides Sufficient Defence when Paired with Fists of Earth
• lack defense - Not True, See above, Defense is not a Natural trait
• uses evasion as an offensive tactic - Logically makes no sense. Evasion is 100% Defensive, Pugilist simply posses the ability to react to it offensively
• lack HP - True but is indicative of any tank that depends more on not getting hit than soaking damage
• possess extremely basic enmity generation - DPS Hate is very High + All the direct Emnity Gen skills of GLA + Provoke + Taunt make this just a blatant lie
• possess defensive abilities that have critical drawbacks - Name one.


People who say things like, "You have to use a lot of <inset name> materia" are making an argument against nothing. Of course you have to use materia. Every tank should be using materia. If your not, your not a good tank. I only use single meld gear and it works great. Its not like I had to stack 5 Enmity +s and 5 Eva +s.

[Kiote]

Mnk will never be able to, or be ideal for tanking. Yeah maybe they can take a couple of hits, but they will never hold hate when they can't BS Howling Fist. Pgl tank may be fun to screw around with on Ifrit or beastmen strongholds, but on *anything* else they will die or not hold hate well enough. Moogle the tank needs to not only take king but Mrd and sometimes more moogles. Chimera hits like a truck on Mrd and Pld, and some of the aoe's that are hard to avoid do more then half a Pgl max HP. Miser with the bad breath and no defense Pgl is a sitting duck. And Garuda? Haha try if you want, but I would never let a Pgl tank it.

Just because you don't know how to do something, doesn't make it impossible.

And for the record, Having Taunt when tanking Moogle makes it a whole lot easier. If there is one kind of fight PGL tanks excel at, its Kiting.

[SafeOnBlock]

This topic is amusing. Kiote's presentation, while it has it's merits, isn't nearly as unbiased and comprehensive as you make it out to be. And the fact that you imply everyone else is closed-minded even as you refuse the tons of evidence they present against PGL-tanking is verging on ironic.

Are you here to discuss the viability of PGL-tanking or do you only want to hear what you want to?

I also have been playing PGL since beta, with a penchant for tanking, and have experienced the changes the class has gone through. Sure, if you build it the right way now, especially with materia, off-tanking and fighting even-matched enemies is definitely possible. But to believe that PGL can be on par with GLA/PLD and MRD/WAR as a main-tank is just foolish.

As has been stated, pugilists currently:

• lack defensive armor
• lack defense
• uses evasion as an offensive tactic
• lack HP
• possess extremely basic enmity generation
• possess defensive abilities that have critical drawbacks

Here's the other side you claimed to have been presented.

MRD: can use second wind, featherfoot, decoy, frontal attacks, high parry rate, defense doesn't rely on having FoE
GLA: can use second wind, featherfoot, foresightlol, decoy, shield, shield abilities,
WAR: collusion, vengeance, antagonize, unmatched HP, high AoE DPS
PAL: divine veil, cover, more effective self-healing, increased defense, block and block rate, AoE Flash, AoE Rampart

Against the tanking standards that have been set, you're really looking at a liability there when you have a "tank" build PGL. Someone who won't be able to tank as effectively as they wish, and won't put out as much damage as they could.

Ironically you must have missed my above post so I will cut and paste it for you.

Back on subject. I said before I havnt play tested anything and was just curious about opinions. I got a lot of them and I do appreciate all of them. I got good ideas and what not from a lot of your input and if for some reason I find a group of people that are willing to help me experiment I will post my findings.

The argument I made before hand were not blatant disregardings of the other side. But more or less counter arguments and ideas. If all I did was agree with both sides there would be no discussion. Just because I dont actually post something stating I have considered said arguments and facts that are anti tank does not mean they have not been considered.

[Meleena]

Kiote how do you tank coincounter with monk?

[syntaxlies]

kiote, you just beet ifrit for the first time 2 days ago, you finally got a kill on batraal after he was nerfed, you haven't beaten CC or av yet, unless i missed it you didnt even beat the first bosses in there. So im just saying dont you think advice from players who have done all that stuff and have been doing it for a long time counts for a bit more when talking tanking mechanics in this game, cause obviously its not working for you.

[SafeOnBlock]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMmsFQ8nFoA
Seems like I got my answer.

[syntaxlies]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMmsFQ8nFoA
Seems like I got my answer.

as i said before there is a video of a thm tanking ifrit and killing him. it doesn't make it ideal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kjgxQSKVFw

so whatever you want though, im done trying to explain logic

[Estellios]

Ifrit was designed during the time where Gla/Mrd had around 2k hp max, and all classes have that natively now. You aren't going to be able to tank any of the current content at all/without an enormous amount of difficulty.