There is no need for this much of spells for healers

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Alright, so when I don't need my kit I really don't need it, on my average dungeon/raid run I use maybe as much as half of my WHM kit. However! When I DO need my kit I need ALL of the kit, I have imbeciles running around picking up aoes like happy meals or just generally not doing mechanics. Just today I had one such experience, activations all over my hotbars and still casting raises - it was a great time, much fun, want more SE, give me more healing to do!

The answer to healers is NOT dps kits, it's healing requirements.

I'll just quote Forsaken's:

I got a question for you Flowerkatie. I would tentatively agree, that it makes sense to solve the healer dilemma by asking 'more healing' required from the healer. To burden our kits enough that we have to start using GCDs, which would replace the boring damage GCDs we have.

A SCH currently has 22 Broils and 2 Biolysis per minute. Let's assume we want to have enough healing to get the player to use only 18 Broils, so 4 GCDs per minute (or one per 15s on average) are changed over to be heals. So my question is, can you tell me how much 'raidwide' damage a dungeon boss would need to do, per raidwide attack (to the nearest thousand) and how often those raidwides need to go out, in order to achieve the modest goal of swapping only 4 Broils to healing GCDs like Succor?

Personally I really do want them to raise the required HPS. But that's only 1 from many other issues they need fixing. We need both, they're not mutually exclusive.

[Carighan]

Alright, so when I don't need my kit I really don't need it, on my average dungeon/raid run I use maybe as much as half of my WHM kit. However! When I DO need my kit I need ALL of the kit, I have imbeciles running around picking up aoes like happy meals or just generally not doing mechanics. Just today I had one such experience, activations all over my hotbars and still casting raises - it was a great time, much fun, want more SE, give me more healing to do!

The answer to healers is NOT dps kits, it's healing requirements.

I think the answer is less binary, although I agree with the conclusion that mostly, we just need fights to deal a whole whole lot more damage. Both to the raid and to the tank. This would also make tank gameplay more engaging as there's more reason to actually use all of your mitigations, and not just Bloodwhetting.

But, I also feel that we got slightly too many in-particular-oGCD tools by now. This is part of the problem, it leaves all of our GCDs empty to cast our one nuke spell with.

So I guess I'd do:

* Increase damage on the tank by 75%-100% in many situations, in particular in higher levels.
* Increase damage on the party massively. Make in particular raid bosses always either have a permanent DoT on the team, throw out 2-3 random bolts every single auto-attack on non-tank targets for 25k-40k damage, or constantly throw low-damage no-warning line attacks into the room or so.
* Remove 2-3 healing oGCDs. Buff the potency of GCDs to compensate, in particular the "just healing" GCDs to give those more of a niche use case with the increased damage now.
* Add 1~3 new DPS buttons that aren't oGCDs, instead combos or stackable DoTs or so, that make the DPS gameplay - which we'd need far far far less of now - more engaging to do.

[Alice_Rivers]

My problem with permanent DoTs in raids is that's just going to elicit or validate permanent medica 2/aspected helios which feels kinda like healing for the sake of it to me. Having more DoTs in general though is something I would support, similarly in addition to raising damage by perhaps 50% for raidwides increasing the frequency of raidwide damage by perhaps the same amount. I've seen people talk about frequent but not lethal and I like it. I agree with 75-100% or maybe more tank damage, tankbusters should have the capacity to be lethal if not properly mitigated and auto attack damage is a joke throughout the entire game. Also whatever happened to tethers?

I'm not sure I like the idea of losing my oGCDs though, as a WHM, more often than not when I use oGCDs it's in conjunction with something else or where I'm healing two or more people so I can cast a GCD heal for one and weave tetra for the second and so on. I know AST and Sage have more oGCD options and maybe giving them some drawbacks, especially in an increased sustain damage environment would make them more situational or supportive to another solution. For example if AST had only regen or delayed heal oGCDs, it wouldn't necessarily outheal all the damage taken over the duration or address an immediate situation, forcing you to supplement them with something else or hope your co-healer coordinates with you. To that end, I would suggest that GCDs (especially casted GCDs rather than instant) should have higher potency simply by virtue of you have to stand there and cast them.

SCH's oGCDs are a slightly different matter since half of them are fairy skills that it makes no sense to have become GCDs except maybe in the fashion of WHM's lilies, which actually gives me another idea, I've pointed out previously that tank gauges are underutilised, maybe it's worth considering making healing oGCDs cost some resource other than time.

[Ramiee]

Sage is such a joke of a job.
Why did they decide to make it SCH 2, you're telling me you had this Kardia system and decided to not make everything tied to that?
Instead of a regen you could of had Philosphia early on, could of had more moves like Penuma. But no make everything like SCH and become genuinely the most boring job ever added to this game, it's literally just SCH without the pet.

[Azurarok]

My problem with permanent DoTs in raids is that's just going to elicit or validate permanent medica 2/aspected helios which feels kinda like healing for the sake of it to me. Having more DoTs in general though is something I would support, similarly in addition to raising damage by perhaps 50% for raidwides increasing the frequency of raidwide damage by perhaps the same amount. I've seen people talk about frequent but not lethal and I like it. I agree with 75-100% or maybe more tank damage, tankbusters should have the capacity to be lethal if not properly mitigated and auto attack damage is a joke throughout the entire game. Also whatever happened to tethers?

Apparently back in 2.0 enemies didn't stop their autos while casting and tankbusters could crit. Even now many ARR bosses have tankbusters that are instant cast, so with that and the smaller toolkits they're certainly more interesting to heal in.

Also I think they could remove some existing healing skills by decreasing the recast and/or adding charges to some others, like merging Asylum and Temperance and reducing its recast to like 60s. Liturgy can be covered with more lilies and plenary indulgence. Adjust Cure III's range and mp cost and remove Medica I. And of course having Cure I upgrade to Cure II.

[Carighan]

Apparently back in 2.0 enemies didn't stop their autos while casting and tankbusters could crit. Even now many ARR bosses have tankbusters that are instant cast, so with that and the smaller toolkits they're certainly more interesting to heal in.

This is also an interesting component of why tanks need so little healing nowadays: Raid bosses are ~constantly casting their next mechanic to ballet through. They rarely have time for autoattacks

[elioaiko]

Removing oGCDs is only a temporary fix and certainly not the answer.

The reason why we have so many oGCDs if because the combat design does not work with constant GCD healing.

The issue with wanting more healing requirements is that forcing GCD healing will make you realize that it's equally as boring as spamming dps filler.

Unless they drastically change the combat system to allow for GCD healing to be worth dropping dps filler casts, planning your oGCDs and maximizing your dps filler will always be the better choice.

Everything is choreographed, and damage is predictable. The only things that are random is the players that are bad at the game and eat everything and boss autos.

Once you learn the encounter, your Medica 3 and Cure 2 usage drops to a minimum and we're back to dps spam.

We're not asking for better dps kits bc we wanna be dps, we're asking for it bc it's the only thing they give us.

The devs are not going to up the healing requirements outside of Savage and Ultimate bc then bad healers will struggle and ppl will complain about how healers aren't healing enough or not being able to survive themselves.

Pls do not ask the devs to make us heal more bc all that tells them is to force more mechanic vomit that really doesn't do anything but force stricter oGCD planning and maybe one or two extra GCD spells being used. Ask them specific things like more dynamic healing playstyles, more unique healer design, and damage taken that isn't 0-100 hp mechanics.

Bc every time the devs have "heard" us wanting to heal more, they just see that as the same whining that's been asked for 3 expansions and every time has resulted in the same "we upped the requirements!" People eat it up bc the beginning of the expansion seems to be harder and "we take so much dmg" only to realize that it's bc of it being the beginning of the new expansion and the ilvl difference is naturally gonna make it harder to heal. Then around the 2nd raid tier people are geared up enough to see that the requirements haven't really gone up, it's just evened out.

The same cycle over and over again....

[Iyrnthota]

I'll just quote Forsaken's:

So my question is, can you tell me how much 'raidwide' damage a dungeon boss would need to do, per raidwide attack (to the nearest thousand) and how often those raidwides need to go out, in order to achieve the modest goal of swapping only 4 Broils to healing GCDs like Succor?

Personally I really do want them to raise the required HPS. But that's only 1 from many other issues they need fixing. We need both, they're not mutually exclusive.

I was curious, so I did some very rough, very back-of-the-envelope calculations, making a lot of assumptions, but by my count it maths out to about 2 extra raidwides (3 total) per minute.

[Carighan]

I was curious, so I did some very rough, very back-of-the-envelope calculations, making a lot of assumptions, but by my count it maths out to about 2 extra raidwides (3 total) per minute.

Damn that's sad that so little change could already effect so much.

[nobleboivin]

I kind of agree. Like seriouslly. Medic one could just turn into medic 2 instead of being a seperate skill. Same with cure 2 and cure 3. Just have cure 1 turn int othem