Would tanks be okay if SE swapped the damage between tank and healers?

[GoatOfWar]

How can you argue to stop continuing to push scaling too far in scope when we are in this mess entirely because tanks scaling in literally every conceivable sense has been so dramatically scaled that it’s actually pushing out another role

Tanks aren’t “successful” as you put it, they are literally just being given the healer roles responsibilities with no strings attached, that sort of balancing doesn’t help anyone

It's only really Paladin and Warrior doing this, but yes. I think this whole promise of reworking jobs and their identity is going to be the remedy to this growing issue.
Things were balanced when they did less dps comparatively, but the players did not want to be balanced fairly. They just wanted to parse. Which now means Warrior and PLD are just better tanks because they bring superior utility that does not come at the cost of anything else. The devs are now stuck in this corner because they never want to nerf things. So i expect this mass rework thing they were talking about in 8.0 will be their way to put jobs back where they belong. That way,they will have plausible deniability and can say it was a rework, not a nerf.

[rxantos]

Given the epidemic of healers that do no healing. Increasing the damage would simply give an excuse for them to not to their job even more.

Tanks where given too much healing. Specially WAR. Is like they don't test this things or test them only on raids.

And who in their right mind thought that removing plunge and replace it by something clunky was a good idea? Plunge had to defects. The new one has their agro at the point where the button is pressed. While plunge had their agro at the point where it lands. It was much smoother running dungeons. Now is a ackward pause instead of a fluid run. And for what? For what reason exactly? Who thought it was a good idea?

[Erit]

Didn't you just say you'd spare the thread intentional disuse of reading comprehension?

I did. You have not.

No one suggested turning tanks into healers. The person you have quoted merely pointed out how they ALREADY frequently replace healers (because it's an rDPS gain at little to no added risk).

In advocating for the primary reason to bring healers to be that their DPS outstrips tanks, by reason of tanks having enough healing that healers are a DPS loss, you are advocating to lean on tank healing to the degree than healers do not need to be doing it and thus become DPS with a different icon color.

You are, by degrees, advocating to turn tanks into the healers and healers into DPS with party support.

You'll notice that it takes a very rigid party composition to completely obviate healers, as well. If a group has people that want to play literally anything but that composition, well, turns out you need at least one healer.

No, giving the role whose damage is actually hurt by doing their role a duly higher damage ceiling so that parties aren't so rewarded for replacing them would not make healers more interesting, but the OP didn't ask anything about that. It was instead, though more nicely worded, whether most tanks' egos would be too fragile to put the game's broader health ahead of feeding their own main character syndrome.

...I suspect we have the answer now.

Alternatively, and I know this is a wild proposition that you may find utterly incomprehensible, we stop using DPS as the only metric of worth and as a consequences see encounters designed with more in mind than how to best troll peoples' rotations as a difficulty measure. I haven't done Ultimate myself, but I have seen footage, and some of the mechanics in there would be genuinely amazing to see in normal content, albeit with the consequences for failure adjusted.

Because it turns out, punishing the people who are having fun simply because other people are not is the petty vengeance of the spiteful, and indulging in it as a design philosophy is fundamentally unable to lead to good outcomes. You want to fix healing? Fix it, by all means. But that means fixing healing, not souring the experience of another role. I'd be all for lessening the healing from tanks, or even outright removing most of it—Paladin can keep Clemency as a thematic nod—with the concession that healers be expected to know their stuff and execute upon it.

[Ramiee]

Alternatively, and I know this is a wild proposition that you may find utterly incomprehensible, we stop using DPS as the only metric of worth

Lol, good luck with that, the past 20 years have shown that MMO players will prioritise DPS above everything else. If you could get away with a party of Vipers a lot of people would run that.

[Erit]

Lol, good luck with that, the past 20 years have shown that MMO players will prioritise DPS above everything else. If you could get away with a party of Vipers a lot of people would run that.

I am painfully aware.

[Supersnow845]

I did. You have not.



In advocating for the primary reason to bring healers to be that their DPS outstrips tanks, by reason of tanks having enough healing that healers are a DPS loss, you are advocating to lean on tank healing to the degree than healers do not need to be doing it and thus become DPS with a different icon color.

You are, by degrees, advocating to turn tanks into the healers and healers into DPS with party support.

You'll notice that it takes a very rigid party composition to completely obviate healers, as well. If a group has people that want to play literally anything but that composition, well, turns out you need at least one healer.



Alternatively, and I know this is a wild proposition that you may find utterly incomprehensible, we stop using DPS as the only metric of worth and as a consequences see encounters designed with more in mind than how to best troll peoples' rotations as a difficulty measure. I haven't done Ultimate myself, but I have seen footage, and some of the mechanics in there would be genuinely amazing to see in normal content, albeit with the consequences for failure adjusted.

Because it turns out, punishing the people who are having fun simply because other people are not is the petty vengeance of the spiteful, and indulging in it as a design philosophy is fundamentally unable to lead to good outcomes. You want to fix healing? Fix it, by all means. But that means fixing healing, not souring the experience of another role. I'd be all for lessening the healing from tanks, or even outright removing most of it—Paladin can keep Clemency as a thematic nod—with the concession that healers be expected to know their stuff and execute upon it.

You obviously haven’t read even a 10th of this thread if your solution is “I’m in support of fixing healing and you can do that by reducing the tanks healing but don’t reduce damage”

I had a 5 page discussion with someone who absurdly refused to even consider the idea that tanks healing should be reduced, it was just completely out of the question to them and any Time it was suggested they simply just shut down

I have no idea where you originally got the idea that I was suggesting turning tanks into healers and healers into supports that’s just me regurgitating weird tank main propositions for how to fix healers while never actually touching anything tanks are able to do. Shruiken also never suggested this, only pointed out that if your damage is reliant on party officials performance you should be rewarded with a better baseline damage, we already lean on the tank heals because they are literally free, making healers do more damage won’t suddenly make people force the tank to use clemency over the healer because the healer is the one with party performance baked into its damage in this scenario

This just circles back to what happens every single tank mains are asked how to fix healers, some are willing to relent on some things, but will never agree on what things to relent on and always act like the healer is the idiot for asking, some will relent on nothing and just ask healers to not be healers anymore so they can continue to heal, some just don’t give a flying f……. About healers. None of these point are my own I’m just regurgitating tank mains own points

[Erit]

You obviously haven’t read even a 10th of this thread if your solution is “I’m in support of fixing healing and you can do that by reducing the tanks healing but don’t reduce damage”

I had a 5 page discussion with someone who absurdly refused to even consider the idea that tanks healing should be reduced, it was just completely out of the question to them and any Time it was suggested they simply just shut down

I have no idea where you originally got the idea that I was suggesting turning tanks into healers and healers into supports that’s just me regurgitating weird tank main propositions for how to fix healers while never actually touching anything tanks are able to do. Shruiken also never suggested this, only pointed out that if your damage is reliant on party officials performance you should be rewarded with a better baseline damage, we already lean on the tank heals because they are literally free, making healers do more damage won’t suddenly make people force the tank to use clemency over the healer because the healer is the one with party performance baked into its damage in this scenario

This just circles back to what happens every single tank mains are asked how to fix healers, some are willing to relent on some things, but will never agree on what things to relent on and always act like the healer is the idiot for asking, some will relent on nothing and just ask healers to not be healers anymore so they can continue to heal, some just don’t give a flying f……. About healers. None of these point are my own I’m just regurgitating tank mains own points

Or, in brief, you're defending this notion as a gimmick. G'day.

[Supersnow845]

Or, in brief, you're defending this notion as a gimmick. G'day.

You mean on page 1 where I said “this was originally my brain fart of an idea that OP turned into a full thread”

Yeah please get with times man we established this 12 pages ago. This was never a true suggestion but always a representation of it tanks would be willing to sacrifice any part of their incredibly overpowered design to rebalance the trinity

[Aravell]

Only in FFXIV will you find people doing Olympics-level mental gymnastics to try and justify why a role that loses absolutely nothing to do their main job should arbitrarily do more damage than the role that takes a heavy damage loss from doing their main job.

Look, I get that no one likes to get nerfed, but buffs and nerfs are the cornerstone to game balance. Look how they made far more work for themselves in balancing the game by buffing everything else instead of nerfing PCT.

Healing and damage output between the tank and healer role desperately requires some rebalancing.

[Carighan]

Only in FFXIV will you find people doing Olympics-level mental gymnastics to try and justify why a role that loses absolutely nothing to do their main job should arbitrarily do more damage than the role that takes a heavy damage loss from doing their main job.

Yeah the swapping is of course a bit very silly - albeit, it would solve the healerless savage raids issue! - but it makes no sense that the two non-damage jobs aren't designed to do the same level of damage. Whether that is current healer or current tanks is irrelevant, but healers and tanks ought to roughly contribute similar damage.