Would tanks be okay if SE swapped the damage between tank and healers?

[Shurrikhan]

I too can present incoherent arguments resulting from a deliberate disuse of reading comprehension, but I'll spare you the example.

The problem of tanks having enough in-house healing to obviate the role of healer is not solved by turning tanks into healers and healers into DPS with party support. That is so bewilderingly ass-backwards it makes me wonder if you're only defending the notion as a gimmick.

Didn't you just say you'd spare the thread intentional disuse of reading comprehension?

No one suggested turning tanks into healers. The person you have quoted merely pointed out how they ALREADY frequently replace healers (because it's an rDPS gain at little to no added risk).

No, giving the role whose damage is actually hurt by doing their role a duly higher damage ceiling so that parties aren't so rewarded for replacing them would not make healers more interesting, but the OP didn't ask anything about that. It was instead, though more nicely worded, whether most tanks' egos would be too fragile to put the game's broader health ahead of feeding their own main character syndrome.

...I suspect we have the answer now.

[Erit]

Didn't you just say you'd spare the thread intentional disuse of reading comprehension?

I did. You have not.

No one suggested turning tanks into healers. The person you have quoted merely pointed out how they ALREADY frequently replace healers (because it's an rDPS gain at little to no added risk).

In advocating for the primary reason to bring healers to be that their DPS outstrips tanks, by reason of tanks having enough healing that healers are a DPS loss, you are advocating to lean on tank healing to the degree than healers do not need to be doing it and thus become DPS with a different icon color.

You are, by degrees, advocating to turn tanks into the healers and healers into DPS with party support.

You'll notice that it takes a very rigid party composition to completely obviate healers, as well. If a group has people that want to play literally anything but that composition, well, turns out you need at least one healer.

No, giving the role whose damage is actually hurt by doing their role a duly higher damage ceiling so that parties aren't so rewarded for replacing them would not make healers more interesting, but the OP didn't ask anything about that. It was instead, though more nicely worded, whether most tanks' egos would be too fragile to put the game's broader health ahead of feeding their own main character syndrome.

...I suspect we have the answer now.

Alternatively, and I know this is a wild proposition that you may find utterly incomprehensible, we stop using DPS as the only metric of worth and as a consequences see encounters designed with more in mind than how to best troll peoples' rotations as a difficulty measure. I haven't done Ultimate myself, but I have seen footage, and some of the mechanics in there would be genuinely amazing to see in normal content, albeit with the consequences for failure adjusted.

Because it turns out, punishing the people who are having fun simply because other people are not is the petty vengeance of the spiteful, and indulging in it as a design philosophy is fundamentally unable to lead to good outcomes. You want to fix healing? Fix it, by all means. But that means fixing healing, not souring the experience of another role. I'd be all for lessening the healing from tanks, or even outright removing most of it—Paladin can keep Clemency as a thematic nod—with the concession that healers be expected to know their stuff and execute upon it.

[Supersnow845]

I did. You have not.



In advocating for the primary reason to bring healers to be that their DPS outstrips tanks, by reason of tanks having enough healing that healers are a DPS loss, you are advocating to lean on tank healing to the degree than healers do not need to be doing it and thus become DPS with a different icon color.

You are, by degrees, advocating to turn tanks into the healers and healers into DPS with party support.

You'll notice that it takes a very rigid party composition to completely obviate healers, as well. If a group has people that want to play literally anything but that composition, well, turns out you need at least one healer.



Alternatively, and I know this is a wild proposition that you may find utterly incomprehensible, we stop using DPS as the only metric of worth and as a consequences see encounters designed with more in mind than how to best troll peoples' rotations as a difficulty measure. I haven't done Ultimate myself, but I have seen footage, and some of the mechanics in there would be genuinely amazing to see in normal content, albeit with the consequences for failure adjusted.

Because it turns out, punishing the people who are having fun simply because other people are not is the petty vengeance of the spiteful, and indulging in it as a design philosophy is fundamentally unable to lead to good outcomes. You want to fix healing? Fix it, by all means. But that means fixing healing, not souring the experience of another role. I'd be all for lessening the healing from tanks, or even outright removing most of it—Paladin can keep Clemency as a thematic nod—with the concession that healers be expected to know their stuff and execute upon it.

You obviously haven’t read even a 10th of this thread if your solution is “I’m in support of fixing healing and you can do that by reducing the tanks healing but don’t reduce damage”

I had a 5 page discussion with someone who absurdly refused to even consider the idea that tanks healing should be reduced, it was just completely out of the question to them and any Time it was suggested they simply just shut down

I have no idea where you originally got the idea that I was suggesting turning tanks into healers and healers into supports that’s just me regurgitating weird tank main propositions for how to fix healers while never actually touching anything tanks are able to do. Shruiken also never suggested this, only pointed out that if your damage is reliant on party officials performance you should be rewarded with a better baseline damage, we already lean on the tank heals because they are literally free, making healers do more damage won’t suddenly make people force the tank to use clemency over the healer because the healer is the one with party performance baked into its damage in this scenario

This just circles back to what happens every single tank mains are asked how to fix healers, some are willing to relent on some things, but will never agree on what things to relent on and always act like the healer is the idiot for asking, some will relent on nothing and just ask healers to not be healers anymore so they can continue to heal, some just don’t give a flying f……. About healers. None of these point are my own I’m just regurgitating tank mains own points

[Erit]

You obviously haven’t read even a 10th of this thread if your solution is “I’m in support of fixing healing and you can do that by reducing the tanks healing but don’t reduce damage”

I had a 5 page discussion with someone who absurdly refused to even consider the idea that tanks healing should be reduced, it was just completely out of the question to them and any Time it was suggested they simply just shut down

I have no idea where you originally got the idea that I was suggesting turning tanks into healers and healers into supports that’s just me regurgitating weird tank main propositions for how to fix healers while never actually touching anything tanks are able to do. Shruiken also never suggested this, only pointed out that if your damage is reliant on party officials performance you should be rewarded with a better baseline damage, we already lean on the tank heals because they are literally free, making healers do more damage won’t suddenly make people force the tank to use clemency over the healer because the healer is the one with party performance baked into its damage in this scenario

This just circles back to what happens every single tank mains are asked how to fix healers, some are willing to relent on some things, but will never agree on what things to relent on and always act like the healer is the idiot for asking, some will relent on nothing and just ask healers to not be healers anymore so they can continue to heal, some just don’t give a flying f……. About healers. None of these point are my own I’m just regurgitating tank mains own points

Or, in brief, you're defending this notion as a gimmick. G'day.

[Supersnow845]

Or, in brief, you're defending this notion as a gimmick. G'day.

You mean on page 1 where I said “this was originally my brain fart of an idea that OP turned into a full thread”

Yeah please get with times man we established this 12 pages ago. This was never a true suggestion but always a representation of it tanks would be willing to sacrifice any part of their incredibly overpowered design to rebalance the trinity