Fine, Bloodwhetting is too OP

[Supersnow845]

if healers that get a warrior would have a reason to heal them would also help with that not gonna lie with you blaming only healers is also childish but hey you do you kiddo

WAR doesn’t need a healer but if the WAE dies it’s still the healers fault or something

[Terhix]

I seexwhat you mean but it's not like they are lacking in other option in question of healing still so even if it get nerf for 200 4 time it's is still in total as a cure 2 in itself

An AoE cap (ideally of 1 heal per GCD) would have a much bigger impact on dungeons than reducing potency. Bloodwhetting on dungeon W2W pulls is so overtuned half or more of its healing currently goes into overhealing anyway, so halving the potency doesn't really accomplish much in this scenario, it's just a nerf in EX+ content where it's not necessarily warranted.

[Alice_Rivers]

An AoE cap (ideally of 1 heal per GCD) would have a much bigger impact on dungeons than reducing potency. Bloodwhetting on dungeon W2W pulls is so overtuned half or more of its healing currently goes into overhealing anyway, so halving the potency doesn't really accomplish much in this scenario, it's just a nerf in EX+ content where it's not necessarily warranted.

I second this.

[PyurBlue]

If you have to use 3 benedictions in a dungeon

You won't always have to. The problem is that you can. So in every case up to the point where things are so wrong that you need multiple Benedictions in a row, the healer is redundant. BW is terrible design.

[Shurrikhan]

An AoE cap (ideally of 1 heal per GCD) would have a much bigger impact on dungeons than reducing potency. Bloodwhetting on dungeon W2W pulls is so overtuned half or more of its healing currently goes into overhealing anyway, so halving the potency doesn't really accomplish much in this scenario, it's just a nerf in EX+ content where it's not necessarily warranted.

Okay, but you thereby then remove from Warrior ANY positive difference between its window of heal-bearing attacks and that of Paladin and consequently most of its flavor.

Now, because it's tied to, Nascent, yes, it still has a unique feature via Nascent, but that itself is more problematic for most of the game than Bloodwhetting is, as it literally doubles its healing at no cost. But even then, look at, say... Intervention. That has the SiO perk of being able to pass along a supercharged short-CD onto the co-tank as one swaps off just after having layered their CDs. Look at HoC; it has, for better or worse, 20 seconds of timing leniency on its Excog. Look at TBN; it can save low-HP allies in an emergency.

Bloodwhetting should have some unique feature. The problem is simply that it presently scales too well with AoE, not that it scales with AoE at all. Diminishing returns would be enough.

Remember also, you can absolutely do healing per action and healing per hit. 200 per action + 200 per hit = 400 vs. first enemy struck, 200 for each thereafter. This creates a unique compromise available to WAR whereby it can sacrifice some damage for a bit more healing in 2-target situations. Or, have the cure potency fall by 25% per enemy struck, capping it therefore at 4 targets' contribution, which would at least still allow it some of that flavor.

Or, scale from damage dealt, as it used to, since AoE hits for less per target than ST and doing so would also allow oGCDs, reflective damage, AAs, raidbuffs, etc., to contribute for a bit more engagement and flavor.

We're talking about the "All of you, come at me" battlefield juggernaut job here. It should be brought to balance and have only as many unique perks as anyone else, but let's not forget its themes -- just shift that theme from merely being "same but better" / OP to something more aligned with its archetype. AoE-scaling is pretty archetypical for them.

[Terhix]

Okay, but you thereby then remove ANY flavor of difference between its window of heal-bearing attacks and that of Paladin.

There is still a difference in that Paladin has its healing tied to their 1min damage cooldown, vs BW is purely a defensive ogcd and therefore gives you way more freedom.

Remember also, you can absolutely do both. 200 per action + 200 per hit = 400 vs. first enemy struck, 200 for each thereafter. Or, scale from damage dealt, as it used to, since AoE hits for less per target than ST and doing so would also allow oGCDs, reflective damage, AAs, raidbuffs, etc., to contribute for a bit more engagement and flavor.

You can do both, but given how much WAR heals (and overheals) currently I don't think you really can make the per target scaling work unless it's completely cosmetic. 200 per action + 200 per hit would be still functionally identical to what it does currently, just without (or with less) overhealing, 300 per action + 100 per hit maybe, but even then you're looking at 800p heal per GCD on a very conservative 5 enemies pull.

[Shurrikhan]

200 per action + 200 per hit would be still functionally identical to what it does currently, just without (or with less) overhealing

Let's consider how and why, though, and what we'd most likely want from dungeons regardless.

So far as I can imagine, there is no advantage to continuing to scale dungeons such that at their own granted ilvl dungeon trash full pulls do not need the whole of everyone's CDs (minus, say, Panhaima/Lilybell/Seraph/Macrocosmos, tank raidwides, feint/addle, and tank invulns) to avoid using at-cost heals. They should instead need everyone's CDs, well utilized, to avoid using at-cost healing all the way up to their max item levels, even if that maximum is then squashed far nearer to minimum (say, 10 ilvl above what they drop).

Once that is the case, that excess does far less to render healing redundant, even if it does increase Warrior's rDPS advantage (since no healer/tank CDs would lack rDPS value / be wholly excess).

But, you're then at a crossroad: Do we remove this iconic flavor from Warrior, or simply siphon it from somewhere else where even Warrior's single-enemy output is excessive (which, even without this perk, it already is, by up to some half over the likes of DRK and third over the GNB). Or, yet another option -- do we simply ensure that other tanks have a bit more dungeon-related perk of their own, and then up the damage output of dungeon trash that little bit more?

I like the idea of reining in categorical advantages (you are in a dungeon and therefore, on the whole, this will contribute 6x overall of what anyone else's most analogous tool produces) to make them instead more situational, but I do not like the idea of stripping flavor. Especially without first thoroughly considering what else would be a more or less universally desirable change to the problem context in the first place.

[aiqa]

Or, yet another option -- do we simply ensure that other tanks have a bit more dungeon-related perk of their own, and then up the damage output of dungeon trash that little bit more?

To challenge bloodwhetting, dungeon mob damage would need to be multiplied a few times. And then HP will go down (and up) way to fast for healers to respond in a reasonable timeframe, or can contribute anything meaningful. And it's not really a good design to have tanks do multiple times the healing of what dedicated healers can do. So then healers need a huge buff to, and then all other content needs bufs, and all max health values on all jobs need increasing to stop healthbars pingpongen between almost empty and full with every attack and every heal.

So basically the whole game needs to be changed just to let WAR keep their overtuned toys. And in the end it wouldn't even do anything possitvie for WAR, since they'd be challenged just as much as when bloodwhetting gets toned down, but now in a game with higher numbers overal. And eating up huge amounts of developer resources that would have been better spend elsewhere.

[Shurrikhan]

To challenge bloodwhetting, dungeon mob damage would need to be multiplied a few times. And then HP will go down (and up) way to fast for healers to respond in a reasonable timeframe, or can contribute anything meaningful. And it's not really a good design to have tanks do multiple times the healing of what dedicated healers can do. So then healers need a huge buff to, and then all other content needs bufs, and all max health values on all jobs need increasing to stop healthbars pingpongen between almost empty and full with every attack and every heal.

So basically the whole game needs to be changed just to let WAR keep their overtuned toys. And in the end it wouldn't even do anything possitvie for WAR, since they'd be challenged just as much as when bloodwhetting gets toned down, but now in a game with higher numbers overal. And eating up huge amounts of developer resources that would have been better spend elsewhere.

I have never recommended leaving Bloodwhetting at its current power. I have made exactly the same point as you before in response to those who have asked to leave Bloodwhetting as powerful as it is now and buff everyone else instead. Repeatedly. Probably across a dozen+ posts by now.

But...

1. leaving Bloodwhetting as is and buffing everyone else...
   
   --is a far cry from---
   
   
2. reining in Bloodwhetting, siphoning off Warriors athematic excess (for instance, since when have AoE HoTs been something we'd expect from a "too angry to die" battlefield juggernaut centered around leveraging its "beast within", let alone vampiric siphons as per Nascent Flash) to balance out any thematic excess, and offering other tanks interesting and diversifying situational perks.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

I'm surprised this even warrants such a lengthy discussion. Heal triggered per enemy is busted, plain and simple.

Bloodwhetting, Raw Intuition, Nascent Flash:
- Make it trigger ONCE per weaponskill OR AOE -75% returns after 1st target (100p).
- [Optional] Depends on current balancing context - heal (and shield?) potency from 400 to 300 (considering the total heal potency elsewhere)

I mean god's sake hecking Essence of the Bloodsucker from Bozja (25% of dmg -> heal) is significantly less even if you count for uptime and even THAT keeps us alive for nearly indefinitely. Why is it even a debate whether AOE Bloodwhetting is too strong? Dungeons are equally content that healers want to do and unlike with other tanks to a degree, WAR makes this content more boring than it has to be - and for whom's sake? The Warrior's.

And while we are at it:
Holmgang -> CD from 240s to 300s, because 4min on this invuln is just BS for a variety of fights.