Please let summoner keep raise

[Anvaire]

As a 10 year SMN veteran. Personally they can take res and Physick away and id be happy. Sure its utility but damage is permamently lower because of it. So SMN's and RDM pay a constant damage tax but do not always get the benefit. When SMN does need to raise it costs damage again as you lose part of whatever phase you are in. So they can take it and good riddence. Unless of course they decide to change how they balance. But why should the cost for party failure be born by SMN's / RDM alone?

I don't count healers in this as i dont really know enough about them to say if its a detriment beyond the MP use.

[Lyth]

I don't think that non-healer raises will be removed, simply because in casual content at least players should have the means to get their healers back up if they're both down. The manner in which it is made available creates a lot of balance issues, however.

The main problem is that you cannot balance utility against DPS, and there is no equivalent utility to having access to an extra raise. These so-called 'raise casters' are perpetually penalized for having access to it, and are treated as prog jobs that you swap out for PCT when you want to meet the DPS check and clear.

The solution is to standardize it as a Ranged DPS role action. If you do this correctly, you will always have the same number of raises. You no longer need to penalize jobs for having access to raise because it's a role effect. There is a very easy lore work around to this:

Phoenix Down (ability): Resurrects target to a weakened state. Charges: 2. Recast: 360s.

You could also adjust the number of available charges to match the fight difficulty, or perhaps even replenish the charges after an Intermission phase or LB3 use. In turn, healers would retain their on-demand access to Raise. I think this is the most fair solution moving forward towards the next expansion.

[mallleable]

I don't think that non-healer raises will be removed, simply because in casual content at least players should have the means to get their healers back up if they're both down. The manner in which it is made available creates a lot of balance issues, however.

The main problem is that you cannot balance utility against DPS, and there is no equivalent utility to having access to an extra raise. These so-called 'raise casters' are perpetually penalized for having access to it, and are treated as prog jobs that you swap out for PCT when you want to meet the DPS check and clear.

The solution is to standardize it as a Ranged DPS role action. If you do this correctly, you will always have the same number of raises. You no longer need to penalize jobs for having access to raise because it's a role effect. There is a very easy lore work around to this:

Phoenix Down (ability): Resurrects target to a weakened state. Charges: 2. Recast: 360s.

You could also adjust the number of available charges to match the fight difficulty, or perhaps even replenish the charges after an Intermission phase or LB3 use. In turn, healers would retain their on-demand access to Raise. I think this is the most fair solution moving forward towards the next expansion.

I would rather they buff raising capabilities for healers than make raising a ranged responsibility. They could even give healers a reraise as a role action so they can revive themselves if they get KO'd. Magical, and physical ranged DPS should be, I don't know, maybe kinda be doing ranged DPS things, and not healer things.

[Rithy255]

I do not personally want any standardised raising in the game, I think role actions should literally be removed lol (Things that are required like Provoke or shirk should get visual differences, even swift casts) I think it's fine to have two casters who can rez and who can't, you see a lot of usage of both even double caster comps using both more often now. I do not think casual content needs more raises, it's fine if a wipe happens it happens, content should be more challenging I think giving more roles raise will trivialise this sort of content further.

I fully understand some people being upset that Red mage or Summoner isn't "optimal" for reclears but by that point damage shouldn't really be a issue considering people will be slowly geared, I think sometimes if we want to step away from homogenization we really got to avoid removing more of what makes a job more intresting over another.

If Summoner gets raise "removed" and more damage, I really don't think it would still even fit with Black mage (or picto) due to it's mobility so I'd hope if it ever got raise removed it would at least get a soft rework where it actually has to cast more often.

[Lyth]

They could even give healers a reraise as a role action so they can revive themselves if they get KO'd.

You will likely run into difficulty with that approach. A reraise effect would completely unbalance raid content, by allowing for more variants of sac strats. It presents a similar problem to the one posed by invulns. The reason why a lot of the LP stack mechanics are centered on healers in order to specifically force you to protect your healer.

Putting raise on tanks instead of SMN/RDM is not really an option, in case it gets suggested. I'm fairly sure that wouldn't go down very well given all the discussion around tank healing effects.

All jobs have varying degrees of utility actions. Raid mitigation is another example of this, and different roles bring this to different extents. Standardizing actions around a role just means that you don't get a DPS penalty for being one of two jobs that brings that utility. Every group would have two non-healer raises as a standard. That lets you balance the roles so that jobs have DPS parity.

The current problem is that different raid comps have varying access to raises, which in turn carries a huge progression benefit. There is no equivalent utility to this because raise saves runs. It's a bit like giving only one tank access to an invuln (you either let everyone have it, or you let nobody have it). As a result, a DPS discrepancy is created to offset this utility disparity between 'raise casters' and 'damage casters'. That's why a lot of the fastest clears on this past tier were double caster (i.e. NIN/DNC/RDM/PCT). What you might not have noticed is that during the prog runs prior to the final clear push, the same group would have been set up as NIN/DNC/RDM/SMN. You create a prog standard and a optimal standard. It's not very fun.

While everyone recognizes this as a problem, SE keeps kicking the can down the road. At this point, it's best to standardize raise, abolish the partitioning of ranged jobs into different sub-sub-categories (damage caster > raise caster/physical ranged), and let people play the jobs that they actually want.

[Sylvain]

I think it's fine to have two casters who can rez and who can't, you see a lot of usage of both even double caster comps using both more often now. I do not think casual content needs more raises, it's fine if a wipe happens it happens, content should be more challenging I think giving more roles raise will trivialise this sort of content further.

The issue is more the taxe that comes from something you ideally never do.

Because they can rez, RDM and SMN DPS is lower, which doesn't matter all that much in easier content as DPS check are relatively forgiving, but does matter, A lot, in harder content where class balance is actually a concern. (Like, who cares that SMN and RDM deal less than PIC and BLM in that savage tier? The DPS check is so low they could nerf everyone's dps by 5% and we'd still be fine by miles).

While keeping a rez to keep jobs more unique is fine, there should be more restriction in order to remove/lessen the tax.
For instance, many people want to tie Pheonix with the rez. That could be a thing, you get 1 charge of rez every time you use your Pheonix. That's 1 rez every 3min, fair enough.
RDM could have a big CD or simply a few charges every fight.

The issue really isn't that they can rez, it's the cost (in dps tax) associated with something you ideally don't wanna do. Useful when you prog, a burden afterward.

Anothing thing that could be done would be to reduce the rez burden on healers by cutting the mana cost or granting some trait which makes 1 rez every x minutes free-ish.

SMN and RDM having a rez wouldn't be such a boon if rezzing wouldn't be such an hassle for healer (notably mp economy).
I mean, for instance what the first healer rez would induce only 30s of rez sickness?

Or what if 1 or 2 healer could self rez once a fight?

Out of the sudden, SMN/RDM rez become much less interesting.

There's also the option of pheonix down as a consummable item for everyone to use.

Really, the issue is the cost associated with that.

You will likely run into difficulty with that approach. A reraise effect would completely unbalance raid content, by allowing for more variants of sac strats. It presents a similar problem to the one posed by invulns. The reason why a lot of the LP stack mechanics are centered on healers in order to specifically force you to protect your healer.
.

A reraise is really the exact same as a RDM rezzing you.
You can frame it by making the skill only usable 5s after dying. (+ the rez animation...) that's really no different than dying and receiving a rez.

If you can abuse any mech with that, you could already with a SMN/RDM (or simply the other healer rezzing you).

You can also simply add restrictions on it like "only usable if at least half the party is alive (2/4 or 4/8 players)

[dspguy]

Outside of raid content, it shouldn't matter who can raise. Let Ninjas raise in-battle, why not? In raid content (prior to this expansion), if you were raising in battle, you were probably wiping due to enrage timers. So, having a RDM or SMN in the party who could raise was really more about continuing progression and less about actually clearing.

It appears that DPS checks are lenient enough that a death or two can be sustained still. Which makes the role of raising in battle actually matter. In that case, it should not be available to all jobs. Keeping it as healer, RDM and SMN seems reasonable enough. But, if we went back to a death in savage meaning a nearly guaranteed wipe due to the enrage timer, I'd say give raise to everyone and anyone. Even if it meant a longer death penalty or a longer cast.

[elioaiko]

Taking away Rez would be dumb af, from a lore and technical standpoint.

Having rez is not even a bonus, especially in farming content. Once you know the fight, it's pretty pointless and it's already punishing for RDM and SMN to even use it as it's dps loss and chain rezzing will tank their MP entirely.

It's only useful in regular content when the healer dies or hunt trains.

And trust me, PIC and BLM are not hurting over not having rez. Their dmg alone more than makes up for it.

[ShadowNyx3]

Party Finder and Duty Finder are not prepared for a world in which only healers can raise.

[SkeletonPsychic]

Isn't damage tied to ease of play not just if they have raise or not. If they take away raise it's not like your damage is going to get much if any boost because the ease of play technically went up due to the complexity dropping. It'll likely be roughly the same damage except now without the utility.