It's time to Lock Out Machinist from PF

[Connor]

Well to be fair it's machinist.
This isn't BRD or DNC with their constant buffs, mitigation and healing.

In Bard’s defense besides constant (raid) buffs Bard actually gets neither mitigation nor healing lol, if you remove its raid buffs it’s actually an awful support compared to the rest. Lolheal boost and lolesuna really aren’t the most valuable utility tools sadly…and that’s it outside role skills lol.

Makes you wonder what SE even deems as a ‘support job’ these days. They say phys ranged is the ‘support’ dps role yet Machinist exists. They say nothing about casters being the actual support classes then there’s Summoner and Red Mage. Like, do the devs genuinely think Machinist/Dancer/Bard can rival the on-demand healing/raise, (near) constant mobility, decent raid buffs etc that Summoner and Red Mage have? Hell you could throw Pictomancer in there too. Tempera Grassa is infinitely bette than Nature’s Minne lol.

Even if they did decide to go all-in on Machinist as a support, what’s even the point when all it can get is fairly useless utility and maybe some raid buffs almost every job in the game gets. If they go all-in with it as a pure selfish dps, how can it ever reach that goal when it’s balanced in the ‘supporters’ role? It’s like poor Machinists can’t win either way lol (honestly Bards too, Dancer at least has some healing and an awful HP shield lol)

[Wolf_Necros]

You are literally trying to remove several classes from the game gtfo with that shit.

[AvoSturmfaust]

So i checked now a few things

Raw DPS wise is MCH is both Bard and Dancer 4k ahead <-- This is the ONLY Metrics which counts for Bosskills, your rdps, ndps, adps and cdps doesnt mean shit outside of a competive Aspect but yea in a rdps competition which only matters for rankings mch is really not the greatest.

i even did a comparsion between melees but both viper and samu arent too far aways from the rdps classes in the melee metric while mch is like 2k away from dancer and bard but you need to understand both have 3 type of Raidbuffs Dancer has SS, Devilment and Technical, Bard has Radiant, Battle and the Songs so its really hard to balance the 3 classes if they would give melees 3 raidbuffs all buff melees would be far ahead of sam/viper in the rdps metric, like bard/dancer is now with mch

but look at adps (thats the only really metric whichs matters for selfish dps) there is mch ahead again

but none of this shit is a reason to lock mch out of the pf, because for your clear only the raw dps matters not your rdps.

[Hanayumi]

Ehh, still using Mch... As far as im concerned Mch has one of the best single target rotations of all the jobs, fairly fun & minimal down time. Ill take any buff if anymore show up but really the thing that needs changing on Mch is uts AoE, at least slap the fucking hypercharge 15s cd reduction thingy on Autocrossbow...

[Valence]

In Bard’s defense besides constant (raid) buffs Bard actually gets neither mitigation nor healing lol, if you remove its raid buffs it’s actually an awful support compared to the rest. Lolheal boost and lolesuna really aren’t the most valuable utility tools sadly…and that’s it outside role skills lol.

Makes you wonder what SE even deems as a ‘support job’ these days. They say phys ranged is the ‘support’ dps role yet Machinist exists. They say nothing about casters being the actual support classes then there’s Summoner and Red Mage. Like, do the devs genuinely think Machinist/Dancer/Bard can rival the on-demand healing/raise, (near) constant mobility, decent raid buffs etc that Summoner and Red Mage have? Hell you could throw Pictomancer in there too. Tempera Grassa is infinitely bette than Nature’s Minne lol.

Even if they did decide to go all-in on Machinist as a support, what’s even the point when all it can get is fairly useless utility and maybe some raid buffs almost every job in the game gets. If they go all-in with it as a pure selfish dps, how can it ever reach that goal when it’s balanced in the ‘supporters’ role? It’s like poor Machinists can’t win either way lol (honestly Bards too, Dancer at least has some healing and an awful HP shield lol)

To Minne's defense, it's a pretty potent shield boost. Heal boost as well if your party is pumping heals, which I found appreciable in P8S p2 for Unnatural Selection, but I find it really interesting when combined with big shield application. Even when it was still in its underwhelming solo target form for DSR release, we used it to spreadlo during Thordan DRK jumps.

Dismantle may be more versatile and easy to use, but it's also drowning in a sea of similar mitigators on the boss, battling with reprisal, addle and feint at the very least. The diminishing returns it gets now that everyone and their moms have mitigation to use tend to make rphys shine less indirectly which is a shame. Still a good skill though don't get me wrong, but hardly necessary, much like Minne.

The problem when compared to newer tools like Tempera Grassa, is that Minne and Dismantle are tools that date back from Stormblood and Heavensward respectively, and back then, they were good comparatively, much like TBN was the best tank short defensive ever in SB, but now pales a little in comparison to the new kids in the block like Bloodwhetting. It's the same for a lot of rphys unique support tools unfortunately. Even Warden had more uses back then and people were already considering it a meme.

[Connor]

The problem when compared to newer tools like Tempera Grassa, is that Minne and Dismantle are tools that date back from Stormblood and Heavensward respectively, and back then, they were good comparatively, much like TBN was the best tank short defensive ever in SB, but now pales a little in comparison to the new kids in the block like Bloodwhetting. It's the same for a lot of rphys unique support tools unfortunately. Even Warden had more uses back then and people were already considering it a meme.

Yeah I think this is the main issues for a lot of jobs now. They’ve been left with certain skills from previous expansions that simply don’t make sense anymore given current encounter design. Like how Warden’s Paean came out when PvP wasn’t separated from PvE. A GCD pre-Esuna with no MP cost is barely useful in PvE, but in PvP it was a genuinely valuable tool (until they gave it a cool-down lol).

I wonder though; I always felt like Dancer held up better than Bard/Machinist compared to other jobs because outside of raid buffs it still has some fairly useful utility like Waltz and Improvisation. I thought it was just SE playing favourites as they always do, but I wonder if it felt like that because Dancer is more recent and thus has skills actually appropriate to current encounter design lol. Not to say that things Dismantle etc aren’t good , but as you say they have issues like being stacked with the 40 million other mitigations we have now and potentially devalued by diminishing returns.

If SE ever does give phys ranged the ‘look-over’ it so desperately needs I really hope they look at Bard / Machinist’s utility and actually update it to more closely match modern combat design. I mean, I’m not a game developer, but since utility skills don’t affect rDPS (cDPS?) directly couldnt they go all in on giving it defensive/debuff utility without having to nerf Machinist’s damage (to an extent ofc lol)?

Idk it’s strange to me because I still see Machinist as a the job that uses Dismantle/Rend Mind for debuffs, throws auto-turrets for extra damage and party support, autoturret Hypercharge giving vuln up. How did they get from that…to here lol?

[OliverQ]

In Bard’s defense besides constant (raid) buffs Bard actually gets neither mitigation nor healing lol, if you remove its raid buffs it’s actually an awful support compared to the rest. Lolheal boost and lolesuna really aren’t the most valuable utility tools sadly…and that’s it outside role skills lol.

Makes you wonder what SE even deems as a ‘support job’ these days. They say phys ranged is the ‘support’ dps role yet Machinist exists. They say nothing about casters being the actual support classes then there’s Summoner and Red Mage. Like, do the devs genuinely think Machinist/Dancer/Bard can rival the on-demand healing/raise, (near) constant mobility, decent raid buffs etc that Summoner and Red Mage have? Hell you could throw Pictomancer in there too. Tempera Grassa is infinitely bette than Nature’s Minne lol.

Even if they did decide to go all-in on Machinist as a support, what’s even the point when all it can get is fairly useless utility and maybe some raid buffs almost every job in the game gets. If they go all-in with it as a pure selfish dps, how can it ever reach that goal when it’s balanced in the ‘supporters’ role? It’s like poor Machinists can’t win either way lol (honestly Bards too, Dancer at least has some healing and an awful HP shield lol)

Bard gets mitigation. Troubadour is 15% party-wide mitigation.

[Xieldras]

Bard gets mitigation. Troubadour is 15% party-wide mitigation.

Every rDPS gets that mitigation, it's a role action.

[Valence]

Yeah I think this is the main issues for a lot of jobs now. They’ve been left with certain skills from previous expansions that simply don’t make sense anymore given current encounter design. Like how Warden’s Paean came out when PvP wasn’t separated from PvE. A GCD pre-Esuna with no MP cost is barely useful in PvE, but in PvP it was a genuinely valuable tool (until they gave it a cool-down lol).

I wonder though; I always felt like Dancer held up better than Bard/Machinist compared to other jobs because outside of raid buffs it still has some fairly useful utility like Waltz and Improvisation. I thought it was just SE playing favourites as they always do, but I wonder if it felt like that because Dancer is more recent and thus has skills actually appropriate to current encounter design lol. Not to say that things Dismantle etc aren’t good , but as you say they have issues like being stacked with the 40 million other mitigations we have now and potentially devalued by diminishing returns.

If SE ever does give phys ranged the ‘look-over’ it so desperately needs I really hope they look at Bard / Machinist’s utility and actually update it to more closely match modern combat design. I mean, I’m not a game developer, but since utility skills don’t affect rDPS (cDPS?) directly couldnt they go all in on giving it defensive/debuff utility without having to nerf Machinist’s damage (to an extent ofc lol)?

Idk it’s strange to me because I still see Machinist as a the job that uses Dismantle/Rend Mind for debuffs, throws auto-turrets for extra damage and party support, autoturret Hypercharge giving vuln up. How did they get from that…to here lol?

Warden is still a corner stone of pvp BRD for the reasons you mentioned. And it's still a niche skill that's been used in anabaseois for 2 fights, which was ultimately fun for the BRD, but in result extremely gimmicky as in, it was kinda useless anyway since the fights were designed to play around it in case of no BRD in party. Ideally you'd have this matter more in a fight where BRD's unique identity would help and be appreciated, but there it was just not the case. Healers could do it too. In P12 p2 it was kinda handy to allow your glare mages to cast more glares I guess.

Curing Waltz is incredibly powerful and so is Improv to a lesser degree yeah. The latter even used as a weave actually heals quite a bit over time. It's definitely because DNC is more recent but I also suspect it is also no stranger to DNC having been expected by the playerbase before ShB as a new healer, which it ultimately wasn't, but I'm pretty sure it also made sense in the devs mind. Even in pvp its healing kit is a non negligible part of the job.

I do not know what they need to do with rphys on the support side, but as long as everyone and their moms have mitigation, and as long as resource support isnt a thing anymore, I don't think that doubling down on defensive support is suddenly gonna make the role better. You don't take it for this now and will probably not take it either unless the defensives are literally tank or healer LB levels of good. Or... if it's a raise. See DNC for example: its support is pretty good, and yet, why would you take a DNC right now beyond the 1% party role bonus? (hint: there is literally zero reason to take one)

It always boils down to all the facets of the game they axed and how barebones they have made the battle system today. It just doesn't offer any specific and important/mandatory niches to fill anymore for the role to be relevant in its current state. The only way to make it relevant in the current system is to make it like any other DPS, with average support tools and a good dps output. It sucks for identity, but that's the sad reality of the current battle system that doesn't accommodate anything else.

[Connor]

Every rDPS gets that mitigation, it's a role action.

Yeah this, I should’ve made it clearer in the post but I meant ‘mitigation unique to the job’ and Troubadour/Samba/Tactician are much closer to a role skill than being unique to those jobs. I mean, Dancer doesn’t technically have mitigation itself either, but at least it has Improvisation to pretend it’s helping lol

It always boils down to all the facets of the game they axed and how barebones they have made the battle system today. It just doesn't offer any specific and important/mandatory niches to fill anymore for the role to be relevant in its current state. The only way to make it relevant in the current system is to make it like any other DPS, with average support tools and a good dps output. It sucks for identity, but that's the sad reality of the current battle system that doesn't accommodate anything else.

Editing to avoid double post. But yeah, I definitely think encounter design has a lot to do with the issues around phys ranged. As you say, with design the way it is even when jobs do have ‘good support/utility’ that really isn’t enough to make them attractive if they aren’t outputting the necessary dps. Ultimately meaning that no amount of defensive/utility support would really be enough if the actual dps output and balancing wasn’t addressed. Although, with that said I certainly wouldn’t complain if phys ranged got healing lb3 back lol. But even that still wouldn’t really make people want to take them outside of like very early progression. Plus a healing lb would make no sense for Machinist whatsoever lol.

And yeah, as sad as it is, I do agree that the current design really restricts how ‘different’ phys ranged can actually be in the grand scheme of things. Honestly I feel it’s begun to constrain the role’s ‘identity’ in the same it has with healers, in that it’s trying to be something that the battle system essentially doesn’t support anymore