My 2 cents on ranged tax

[Lyth]

...

As long as Physical Ranged exists within its own role category, there's no incentive for the developers to give it parity with Magical Ranged. It will continue to languish under the claim that it only needs to be balanced within its own singular protected slot.

For reference, in Heavensward, Ranged was treated as a singular role category: Patch 3.1 Notes

The Limit Break Gauge will fill more slowly than before for parties with three or more members of the same role. Class/job roles are as follows:

Tank: Gladiator / Marauder / Paladin / Warrior / Dark Knight
Melee DPS: Pugilist / Lancer / Rogue / Monk / Dragoon / Ninja
Ranged DPS: Archer / Thaumaturge / Arcanist / Bard / Black Mage / Summoner / Machinist
Healer: Conjurer / White Mage / Scholar / Astrologian

That was also the time when Physical Ranged was at its most powerful, and double Physical Ranged comps were in vogue. When it splintered off into its own subrole, it ended up doing less damage on the claim that it was more 'support orientated'. But Magical Ranged on the whole offers much more utility options, be it in the form of raises, defensives, and even burst mobility. So we shift the goalposts, and it now does less damage on the claim that it's easier to play and allows free movement (which is irrelevant, because burst mobility is what matters). I think that's why we're seeing more discussions around walking casts now, because players want to see a more level playing field between the two subsets of Ranged jobs.

Merging back the subrole would force balance adjustments across the board, both in terms of damage and utility, and let Physical Ranged jobs feel valuable again.

[rewd]

BLM is dependent on its rotation and requires an allied target.
PCT is very flexible on its rotation outside of the 120s and doesn't requires a target.

Even if we don't agree on this point, PCT remains incredibly mobile.

Saying that AM depends on the rotation is wrong, or misleading if you prefer. What you probably meant is that it depends on whether you can weave it or not. While this is true, you can create a space to weave at all times with a Xenoglossy, making the point moot.

A dash is not always better than a gap closer and vice versa, so saying that AM requires a target is not a negative point. Different type of skills shine in different situations.

PCT is very mobile. So are BLM and RDM (and SMN, of course). If they weren't, they'd be pretty much unplayable given how fights are designed. Saying that PCT is very mobile (or any caster of your choice) is one thing, saying that DNC (of all jobs) is less mobile, is absolutely preposterous.

[Valence]

And here we go again, people trying to pit the difficulty of their respective roles in order for... what exactly again?

[Ramiee]

And here we go again, people trying to pit the difficulty of their respective roles in order for... what exactly again?

Excuses of why theirs should do more damage and why the filthy other roles cant be near theirs damage.

[Xieldras]

And here we go again, people trying to pit the difficulty of their respective roles in order for... what exactly again?

I personally don't get it. I just want my class to be fun, I don't care if I'm the best in damage.

I understand that balancing is a tough act, but seems to me like the community (and thus S-E) holds it as sacred, hence why there are so many disagreements.

[CKNovel]

saying that DNC (of all jobs) is less mobile, is absolutely preposterous.

Sorry my opinion offended you.
Can we move on to the actual facts, now? Such as the utility and the absence of tax compared to its magical and physical peers?

As long as Physical Ranged exists within its own role category, there's no incentive for the developers to give it parity with Magical Ranged. It will continue to languish under the claim that it only needs to be balanced within its own singular protected slot.

This is highly speculative but I believe the roles were merged to give players more choices. Since you could play 2 melees of the same role, regardless of it being suboptimal, you had 3 melees to choose from but only 2 ranged or 2 casters. I believe the role bonus arrived in Shadowbringer, exactly when each subroles had 3 choices, but also when the ranged tax happened.

Now, in my opinion there shouldn't be any "role bonus". It has a positive of ensuring each role will be picked and allows balance slip-up.
But on the negative side, this allows a massive slip up on a whole role and makes the physical ranged role the ungrateful role.
You matter less but hey, you're here to bring the 1% stats buffs!

[Corwin_Sunchaser]

I personally don't get it. I just want my class to be fun, I don't care if I'm the best in damage.

I partially share your opinion. I play MCH so obviously I play it because I find it fun, not because it's the best. However as a player playing a dps role (like melee, casters etc...), it's annoying to be so low compared to other dps, that it can mean a kill or not. For example on M4S the difference between a viper and a MCH at parse median is around 2500 dps. That's more than 10% difference. And for killing the boss it means something like 1.6% of its total hp. To compare, remember when they nerfed P8S in 6.21 because an extra 1% was making the boss too difficult?

So yes, when you play physical ranged dps, you play in hard mode.

[Supersnow845]

As long as Physical Ranged exists within its own role category, there's no incentive for the developers to give it parity with Magical Ranged. It will continue to languish under the claim that it only needs to be balanced within its own singular protected slot.

For reference, in Heavensward, Ranged was treated as a singular role category: Patch 3.1 Notes



That was also the time when Physical Ranged was at its most powerful, and double Physical Ranged comps were in vogue. When it splintered off into its own subrole, it ended up doing less damage on the claim that it was more 'support orientated'. But Magical Ranged on the whole offers much more utility options, be it in the form of raises, defensives, and even burst mobility. So we shift the goalposts, and it now does less damage on the claim that it's easier to play and allows free movement (which is irrelevant, because burst mobility is what matters). I think that's why we're seeing more discussions around walking casts now, because players want to see a more level playing field between the two subsets of Ranged jobs.

Merging back the subrole would force balance adjustments across the board, both in terms of damage and utility, and let Physical Ranged jobs feel valuable again.

That’s my point, physical ranged holds on by the fact that it doesn’t compete with anyone else. If they shoved it into magical ranged one of three things would happen

1) physical ranged is adjusted up; either in raw damage or useful utility to compete with PCT and BLM, in this case the meta would likely form 1/3 in ranged favour as melee considerations would just he a hinderance

2) the melee damage magical ranged are bought down so all ranged do 10-15% less than all melee, thus just generates the reverse problem where a 3/1 meta would form with the 1 overwhelmingly being a rezz caster

3) phys ranged are shoved into magical ranged with no potency adjustments, in this scenario phys ranged die on arrival as the casters either do more damage, have a rezz or do more damage and have a rezz


There is no benefit to fusing the ranged roles, they need to actually make phys ranged worth bringing for more than the 1% and then also put them in consideration for the 4th spot if you want their unique offering more than you want the raw damage a second melee or a melee caster brings

[Lyth]

I believe the role bonus arrived in Shadowbringer, exactly when each subroles had 3 choices, but also when the ranged tax happened.

Now, in my opinion there shouldn't be any "role bonus". It has a positive of ensuring each role will be picked and allows balance slip-up.
But on the negative side, this allows a massive slip up on a whole role and makes the physical ranged role the ungrateful role.
You matter less but hey, you're here to bring the 1% stats buffs!

If I remember correctly, the role bonus has its origin in ARR. There used to be a system where jobs in a full party brought a 3% buff to their primary stats. So for example, having a tank in the party gave you 3% VIT and STR, having a healer gave you 3% MND, and so on. The main restriction on party composition was an LB penalty. That system still exists, because you still get docked for composition violations (solo tank, solo healer, or duplicate jobs). The first violation adds about 2 minutes to your passive LB3 generation time and it caps at roughly a 4 minute penalty for multiple violations. Historically, having three melee or three ranged would have also counted as violations, but that was waived sometime around Stormblood.

Having some enforced structure is good, because there are some things that you just can't balance (i.e. if you could drop a support and bring extra DPS without penalty, you'll do that). In the case of Physical Ranged though, it unfortunately functions as a barrier to actually trying to balance those jobs with Magical Ranged, despite it being entirely reasonable to do so.

...

Raises will need to be looked at in 8.0 if they're doing a systemic revision of the job system. It's powerful enough as a progression tool that you get penalized just for having access to it. I think the solution is to make it uniformly available as a role action. There were some questions about how you might do this aesthetically, but you really just need a 'Phoenix Down' action with a fixed recast/charges. If you did this, then it no longer needs to affect job DPS, and you're no longer left with different tiers of ranged jobs. You just have a single Ranged category, and all seven jobs have access to the action.

The reason why people don't run triple melee compositions is because of fight mechanics. I don't think I've ever seen it work out in PF, simply because someone is going to be forced to constantly disengage to take a 'fake ranged' spot (and the group is more likely to disband than reach agreement on who that person is). Fights are designed around a 2/2/2/2 perspective, so while a ranged job can often be used as a melee substitute, the reverse is generally not true.

Either way, I think the fact that we have different 'damage' tiers on ranged jobs is a serious problem. You have damage casters, raise casters, and then physical ranged. Consolidating the role creates a single tier where all seven ranged jobs are treated equally, while retaining their unique playstyles. That should be the end goal.

[Valence]

I personally don't get it. I just want my class to be fun, I don't care if I'm the best in damage.

I understand that balancing is a tough act, but seems to me like the community (and thus S-E) holds it as sacred, hence why there are so many disagreements.

Any debate based on difficulty is doomed to fail to sheer subjectivity (and bias as well), on top of also getting into serious slippery slope territory of "what then?" once some roles are designed to underperform: they become the baby's first raid jobs, disparaged, disregarded, introduce skill gaps within groups, etc. Fortunately there is SMN to shield rphys from this all, but still.

Either way, the real problem is that rphys as a role currently can only use APM/busyness and rotational complexity as levers to stay in that race, since uptime is a non parameter for them. And currently, the role doesn't exactly deliver in those areas comparatively to other roles. MCH delivers in APM, BRD/DNC in rotational proc/rng, but the latter has... been watered down quite hard, and both aren't exactly above everything else found in other roles to justify anything anyway. And since I do think that there is a limit to APM for a job to flow well and fit within the current limits of the system, my conclusion is that they really killed the rotational depth of the role when they shouldn't have.

Now, in my opinion there shouldn't be any "role bonus". It has a positive of ensuring each role will be picked and allows balance slip-up.
But on the negative side, this allows a massive slip up on a whole role and makes the physical ranged role the ungrateful role.
You matter less but hey, you're here to bring the 1% stats buffs!

Not gonna lie I hope someone has the guts to ask this question to Yoshida next Q&A, like that guy that asked him why WhM was so garbage at the end of SB and if they had any plans to make it better. Paved the way for one of the most successful meme gifs ever made.