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  1. #291
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
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    Tani Shirai
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    Cactuar
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    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by MikoRemi View Post
    And yet not only are we not infringing on others because our egos need stroking, were winning as is with a fun job.
    Because reverting Bloodwhetting to again be advantaged by banked gauge, combo position, oGCDs, reflective damage, autos, raid buffs, vulnerability windows, etc. makes it less fun?

    Again, unless by "gameplay" you mean solely power (the degree of effort or optimization required to perform a given task) rather than playflow (the processes and considerations of actually doing that task, especially if optimally), your issue here seems nonsensical.

    If to you, {higher skill ceiling} = {less fun}, than can we just dispense with the tangents and just discuss compromises in "accessibility" for those who don't want feel encouraged to optimize things?

    Otherwise, if this is truly a preference just for unique advantages (with compensatory disadvantages), can we discuss to what degree you'd be fine with Warrior being left out of certain fights it's less advantaged in... in exchange for its being an encouraged/obliged pick for what content it is advantaged in, and/or why it'd be fine to make an entire content type just "Warrior's" until said content type can be redesigned to repair its degree of choice for (and only for) Dawntrail and onward?


    Quote Originally Posted by CKNovel View Post
    We already pointed that nerfing WAR won't make healers magically fun and backed it up with data and examples from other content, then proposed solution to make healers more fun.
    The data and examples from other content shows the same thing people were saying about EW/DT Bloodwhetting/Nascent and Warriors' balance overall. It and they overperform generally despite ALSO enjoying significant specific advantages (far more so than anyone but PLD-in-a-specifically-healer-less-but-high-ST-damage-taken-encounter), e.g.:
    • whenever stackable mitigation falls within its duration + 15s of a raidwide and/or a raidwide requiring mit falls within 15s of a prior one that did not specifically need tank mit to avoid needing GCD barriers,
    • whenever AoE attack opportunities are alignable with one's on-demand,
    • whenever having the by far shortest invuln in the game can rope an extra cheese per fight, allowing for rDPS saves or a more lenient CD schedule to recover from mistakes,
    • whenever heals can actually be simultaneously pressured for raidwides and anti-tank damage,
    • and anywhere one can make any use of having generally some 44-50% more sustain (not even counting overhealing or excess barrier HP, though exempting emergency Clemencies) for ~2% less aDPS (which, heck, was less than half a percent until the latest patch).
    Like, seriously, how the hell are we supposed to "solve" that imbalance just by increasing healing requirements... when that would hugely exacerbate that imbalance's impact on the clear speeds (assuming healers don't just outright oom without enough Warriors or Paladins to make up the difference) and likelihood of wipes (from the extra rDPS lost to healing when not WAR/PLD or WAR/WAR)? On the contrary, it would make the matter exponentially worse. I don't understand how anyone could look at that discrepancy and think "Well, if you just made its advantage MORE impactful, then it'd get balanced again." ???
    At this point, Warrior's theme isn't self-healing or temporary HP or thrill of the fight or anything so iconic; it's themed most around, simply, copied tools with their friction and skill ceilings then pruned away or their floor itself given enough output to be competitive even without optimizing the skill.

    And that should not be the case. Warrior deserves a real identity beyond just "everyone else's skills, but distilled to their most practical core (+ occasionally some unique advantage that, also uniquely, comes with no real or net cost)."

    But its "identity" is more than likely going to remain that haphazard crap for however long players --whenever the questions are applied to THEIR job--
    • insist that specific advantages should not come with compensatory practical weaknesses,
    • insist that content be built uniquely around them ("Don't nerf Bloodwhetting; just remove AoEs from dungeons instead"),
    • insist their skills be/remain relatively skill-proofed ("Our sustain should be competitively strong even when we don't optimize it, but it should still reward us for optimizing it"), or
    • --just as importantly-- refuse to understand that broad categorical differences in strengths simply prune what jobs are competitive for particular fights and/or at particular levels of gearing... far, far more than they add to job flavor (whereas many other approaches do fine -- just not that one).

    I would love to build up a strong Warrior identity. I'd love to see a 4.1 approach revitalized. But I get the feeling that isn't really the priority here for most people expressing allegedly related concerns. Instead, rather like Endwalker Summoner discussion, ease of power seems the more core motive.
    (1)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 08-18-2024 at 05:42 AM.

  2. #292
    Player
    Alice_Rivers's Avatar
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    Alice Rivers
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    Omega
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    White Mage Lv 100
    I feel, rereading my previous comment, I should clarify I'm not accusing all of the tanks here of stonewalling, nor am I saying all healers are innocent. I know I have said some things that are less than helpful or productive myself.
    (0)

  3. #293
    Player
    CKNovel's Avatar
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    Cassia Kaedhan
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    Ragnarok
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    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers View Post
    Healers demanding that things be arranged that healers are given the room/need to heal and tanks saying paragraphs that amount to "No.".
    How do you consider that diplomacy or compromise?
    It doesn't change anything, your solution is to impose a pointless nerfs that will negatively affect other content such as fate farming and maps.
    Don't be surprised you meet resistance from Warrior players, it's harmless fun.

    WoW is a complete different can of worm, tanks have more utility like debuff cleansing, battle res, dodge (sometimes 100%) and but let's do it:
    -"Tank durability can cause some other problems as well, especially in challenging endgame content" this is a completely different situation from XIV.
    -In War Within tank sustain is much higher than XIV. There's literally a tank that can't die in their savage equivalent, outside of instant KO. If you complained about WAR being immortal, Blood Death Knight is truly immortal in any content.
    -"They sustain the group, dispel harmful effects, and respond to burst damage", healers have more responsibility than watching healthbar.
    -WoW Tanks can heal much more than XIV's, if you complained here I'd agree, thought it's the previous expansion i've seen numbers from tanks doing 80% of a healer.
    (1)

  4. #294
    Player
    Alice_Rivers's Avatar
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    Alice Rivers
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    And this is why we have no discussion. I offered you five avenues for discussion of content, I offered a position where a tank gets a pretty sizable buff, I gave my thoughts on why I thought it was a good idea to have content+DRK buff and trimming of excess on other tanks meet somewhere in the middle. Then I went on to give an example of how this approach has precedent and what do you offer me in return?
    (2)

  5. #295
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
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    Tani Shirai
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    Cactuar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CKNovel View Post
    How do you consider that diplomacy or compromise?
    She didn't say THAT (a general observation of others' actions across the thread) was [her attempts to compromise].

    It doesn't change anything, your solution is to impose a pointless nerfs that will negatively affect other content such as fate farming and maps.
    I would find actually having as much challenge in FATEs, maps, and dungeons on Warrior (without needing to drop gear) as available to me on other tanks a way to more enjoy Warriors.

    At this point, I can't help but suspect we're not talking what people who care about Warrior as a theme or archetype or playflow like, but rather what tanks who don't want as much challenge most like.

    Don't be surprised you meet resistance from Warrior players
    See above.

    harmless fun
    No more so than an lv100 BLU being released onto current content, and for similar reasons, even if the resulting imbalances are at least more specific.

    WoW is a complete different can of worm, tanks have more utility like debuff cleansing, battle res, dodge (sometimes 100%) and but let's do it:
    -"Tank durability can cause some other problems as well, especially in challenging endgame content" this is a completely different situation from XIV.
    -In War Within tank sustain is much higher than XIV. There's literally a tank that can't die in their savage equivalent, outside of instant KO. If you complained about WAR being immortal, Blood Death Knight is truly immortal in any content.
    -"They sustain the group, dispel harmful effects, and respond to burst damage", healers have more responsibility than watching healthbar.
    -WoW Tanks can heal much more than XIV's, if you complained here I'd agree, thought it's the previous expansion i've seen numbers from tanks doing 80% of a healer.
    There's quite a large problem with your analog here.

    First, flat output is always more problematic in more casual content. If an M10 doesn't require healers, you can be assured that an M0, a Heroic, or a Normal dungeon will not require one either.

    More importantly, though, if WoW's context is "completely different", how is a tank being able to heal itself through most of its own damage there (let alone due only to massive buffs in a Beta flavor pass that the devs have already stated will be compensated for through general and hefty nerfs to tank sustain) an excuse for XIV tanks being able to heal itself and others through most or all damage?

    In WoW dungeons, the tank can account for as a little as 40% of net damage received. Which is why the healer can have far more responsibility... so long as the tank isn't also dealing with all that healing (see Prot Paladin / Enh Shaman parties for much of Shadowlands).

    WoW tanks may heal more than XIV's in absolute terms of raw %HP, but every time they've healed for anywhere near as large a portion of incoming damage, that job or tanks as a whole have gotten nerfed, and for good reason. Including right now. Presently. In the latest patches. With explicitly more nerfs to come. Because that much healing (roles being that imbalanced in contribution per player or the likelihood of a role being made redundant in more casual play) will tend to be bad for the game.
    (2)
    Last edited by Shurrikhan; 08-18-2024 at 05:12 AM.

  6. 08-18-2024 04:53 AM

  7. #296
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
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    Tani Shirai
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    Whiskey, it's precisely the healers skilled in minimizing (the offensive opportunity costs of) healing done that are affected by what Pyur is complaining about. If the player already healed excessively, that even their oGCD heals are made redundant wouldn't matter to them.
    (1)

  8. #297
    Player
    whiskeybravo's Avatar
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    Whiskey Bravo
    World
    Leviathan
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    Warrior Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by Shurrikhan View Post
    Whiskey, it's precisely the healers skilled in minimizing (the offensive opportunity costs of) healing done that are affected by what Pyur is complaining about. If the player already healed excessively, that even their oGCD heals are made redundant wouldn't matter to them.

    Yea. I just thought about it some more and I guess I can see the argument for that. Personally, when I was leveling AST I breathed a sigh of relief every time it was a WAR tank. But I'm not a heal main so..
    (2)

  9. #298
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whiskeybravo View Post
    Yea. I just thought about it some more and I guess I can see the argument for that. Personally, when I was leveling AST I breathed a sigh of relief every time it was a WAR tank. But I'm not a heal main so..
    Hah, yeah, I get where you're coming from now. I just thought it best to point out how things may have gotten inverted there.

    Those less familiar with a given task will often enjoy, at least for the while, some extra ease in performing that task, especially if anxious. And that's fair.

    The point of many here has simply been that the excess then makes gameplay feel worse both for veteran Warriors (whose skill expressions have been degraded) and for those healing (alongside) them (since the challenge available to them is then reduced to the point that, even at min ilvl, they can't make full use of their kit if playing optimally).
    (0)

  10. #299
    Player
    CKNovel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers View Post
    And this is why we have no discussion. I offered you five avenues for discussion of content, I offered a position where a tank gets a pretty sizable buff, I gave my thoughts on why I thought it was a good idea to have content+DRK buff and trimming of excess on other tanks meet somewhere in the middle. Then I went on to give an example of how this approach has precedent and what do you offer me in return?
    We have no discussion because you're hellbent on a suggestion, doesn't matter what package you offer if your suggestion is still hidden in there.
    You propose 5 cake of choice but each has a poison in it and you complains I won't eat any of them, then play the victim how I'm not open to discussion.

    "therefore, it is still my ideal position that we balance increased threats in content with a reduction in tank sustain, per what WoW devs appear to be doing here."
    I've looked into it and the problem is wildly different since it affect "challenging endgame content", not dungeons.
    (1)

  11. #300
    Player
    Alice_Rivers's Avatar
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    It's called discussion, not capitulation, but you seem to be trying very hard to make it appear anything short of capitulation is unacceptible to you.

    I have tried, again, to have a discussion. But just as you can lead a horse to water, I cannot make you discuss.

    Edit: You spoke of compromise, yet as I suggest we compromise you say no. You don't even offer an alternative, just "no".
    (2)
    Last edited by Alice_Rivers; 08-18-2024 at 06:07 AM.

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